Scouter with WAY too much involvement.

[Maboot38]

Hello all. We have a Scouter who is, in my opinion, FAR to involved in each and every facet of leadership in our troop. This person is a good person at heart, but with a very strong personality, very very loud, and also very unable to step back and let the kids do their thing. Just a helicopter parent who has made the entire troop THEIR show. Kind of like a Cubmaster on stimulants, but in a BSA troop! Again, good person, and helpful at times, but has already been the main reason why some people have left the troop. This scouter is so overbearing and willful, but is absolutely unable to take any suggestion and has repeatedly turned down help when offered, saying "don't take this away from me!" or "It's ok, I love doing it!". I'm a firm believer that no one adult should wield this much power, control, or influence, especially over a troop which is supposed to be run by the scouts. So.....

This post isn't necessarily about what too do about this individual, it's more about what they actually can and cannot do.

According to our Scoutbook roster, here are this person's positions (in just one troop - they also hold all the similar positions in a sister troop):

Committee Chairman, Key 3 Delegate, Assistant Scoutmaster, Unit Advancement Chair, Unit Training Chair

So the question is, is a Scouter even ALLOWED to hold all these positions at the same time? Would I be able to get someone on the committee to actually cite a regulation stating that we are in some sort of violation by having this person hold all these positions (especially when we DO have adults who would be willing to share the work)?

Again, I don't dislike this person, and don't bear them any ill will, but I'm trying so hard to get this troop to be compiant and adhere to the principles of scouting, as well as to follow the methods of scouting, and the best practices for scout leadership, and despite all the training videos this Scouter has watched, there doesn't appear to be any practical application of those learnings taking place.

Edited February 8 by Maboot38

[DuctTape]

There are no restrictions on the number of positions one person may hold as long as the individual serves in only one position per unit with the exception of the chartered organization representative (CR), who is the only individual that can be registered in more than one position within the same unit. The CR may also serve in a multiple capacity as the committee chair (CC) or as a member of the committee (MC, NM, or PT) within that unit.

 

From: Registration Guidebook rev 2019 (page 14)

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Registration-Guidebook.pdf

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 hours ago, Maboot38 said:

So the question is, is a Scouter even ALLOWED to hold all these positions at the same time?

Short answer: NO!

Now, your Scoutbook roster isn't the official document.

Before we go too far down the rabbit hole, may I ask what roles you have under your profile in my.scouting.org ??

Longer answer: You cannot be a CC and Assistant SM in the same unit.  Having the "Key 3 Delegate" title in Scoutbook makes no sense, because, as CC, they are already Key 3.   Regarding the other Committee positions, it begs this question: how many Scouts are in the Troop?

You can see @DuctTape has quoted you chapter and verse above, per your request.

Finally, reality often does not care what our regulations have to say 😜

Edited February 8 by InquisitiveScouter

[Maboot38]

9 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

 

Before we go too far down the rabbit hole, may I ask what roles you have under your profile in my.scouting.org ??

Mine has this: 

Key 3 Delegate, Scoutmaster

I think Key 3 delegate just means I am a key three. Most likely it’s for communication and notification purposes. It’s redundant, not a separate role.

[InquisitiveScouter]

So, as an Assistant Scoutmaster, this person works for you (Scoutmaster), and as Scoutmaster, you answer to the Committee Chair.

You see the conundrum there?

[InquisitiveScouter]

18 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

I think Key 3 delegate just means I am a key three.

No, you should check who is listed in the Functional Roles under Organization Manager in my.scouting.

You, may be able to tweak those...

[Maboot38]

6 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

So, as an Assistant Scoutmaster, this person works for you (Scoutmaster), and as Scoutmaster, you answer to the Committee Chair.

You see the conundrum there?

Oh, I see lots of problems. That’s just one of them.

[Maboot38]

47 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

No, you should check who is listed in the Functional Roles under Organization Manager in my.scouting.

You, may be able to tweak those...

I guess I’m not following. In my scouting.org. The key three are all labeled as key three and when that is done, they all show up as key three delegates in scout book. I don’t believe there is any problem with the key three thing.

[HashTagScouts]

21 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

I guess I’m not following. In my scouting.org. The key three are all labeled as key three and when that is done, they all show up as key three delegates in scout book. I don’t believe there is any problem with the key three thing.

I believe what @InquisitiveScouter is referring to is what is in the official roster in ScoutNet (my.scouting.org) versus what is in SB. In other words, what positions is this person actually registered as through Council? 

[T2Eagle]

To explain a little bit about the differences between SB and scouting.org, SB is an interface that allows you to access scouting.org, but it also has some labeling and functionality of its own.  Scouting.org is THE official database, and reflects the official registration of each individual.  I suspect that in scouting.org he is listed solely as Committee Chair.

His listing as an ASM in SB is probably an artifact of an earlier position or some sort of miscue when someone set up SB.  The other positions you listed seeing in SB are not actual official positions.  They’re suggestions for how you can structure a troop committee.  To wit, the Advancement Chair and Training Chair are titles that can be conferred on any member of the committee, including the Committee Chair, but they’re not necessary, and you don’t have to have or use them at all in a functioning committee.  

Now, within SB, those titles, along with the key three delegate title, grant the person or people holding them some functions and permissions within SB, like the ability to record adult training or record scout advancements.  
 

If you have one person who is actually the only person performing chair duties, AND advancements, AND training that is a bad idea, and some folks should have a heart to heart to talk about how delegating roles is important for any organization.

[Maboot38]

Probably my fault, but people are focusing too much on the actual online tools. So let me back up. 

The person BELIEVES they are and WANTS TO ACT AS Committee Chair, Assistant Scoutmaster, Advancement Chair, and Unit Training Chair. They do it ALL...and when I offer to get help and have someone else take some of the responsibility, that response is "Don't take this from me, I love it!" So we are stuck with this person BEING the Troop...and it's driving people (members and leaders) away. 

So it seems my question about whether or not the are allowed to hold all those positions is that they are NOT. At least according to a 8 year old document.

Now no idea what to DO about it. 

[DannyG]

I have seen troops fall apart because an overbearing parent takes the lead, the scouts get bored and quit for other activities. Discuss your concerns with adult leadership, COR and Scoutmaster. All adult leaders answer to COR. It is time for COR and Scoutmaster to sit down and have a meeting with this person about how detrimental this is to the scouts and the program. 

[MattR]

@Maboot38 , you seem to recognize a problem and aren't willing, or more likely, know how to deal with it. You have an adult that is driving off scouts. This has nothing to do with titles. This is a people problem. Something needs to change, which you recognize. The options are he backs off on his own or you back him off. You're the SM. He's messing up your program. You have a vision of how this should work (and it sounds good from what you've implied) and he's hindering that. You need to decide whether the time it will take to change him is worth it. If so, great. If not, he needs to go.

Your question shouldn't be about titles and what the rules allow. Instead, it should be about how to confront this guy in as scout-like a manner as possible. There are no rules on how to do that, just experience having worked with people problems before.

Good luck.

[Jameson76]

On 2/9/2024 at 3:05 PM, Maboot38 said:

Probably my fault, but people are focusing too much on the actual online tools. So let me back up. 

The person BELIEVES they are and WANTS TO ACT AS Committee Chair, Assistant Scoutmaster, Advancement Chair, and Unit Training Chair. They do it ALL...and when I offer to get help and have someone else take some of the responsibility, that response is "Don't take this from me, I love it!" So we are stuck with this person BEING the Troop...and it's driving people (members and leaders) away. 

So it seems my question about whether or not the are allowed to hold all those positions is that they are NOT. At least according to a 8 year old document.

Now no idea what to DO about it. 

Have a celebration, congratulate them on their years of service, give them a nice plaque, note all the things they currently do, then name all the folks that are taking over these responsibilities, have a cake, take photos, and name them committee member emeritus and let them know they have earned the time off and rest.

That or shove them off a mountain on the next outing, though there is a lot of paperwork involved in the mountain option (don't ask me how I know), the celebration solution is waaaay tidier.  Plus there's cake.

Edited February 10 by Jameson76

[mrjohns2]

On 2/8/2024 at 6:46 PM, Maboot38 said:

when that is done, they all show up as key three delegates in scout book

No, they don't. You are mistaken. The key 3 delegate position is to delegate, software wise, key 3 access. A member of the key does not get automatically, nor needs, the key 3 delegate role.