Another Camping MB 9B Requirement Question :)

[ThreeFiresEagle]

Hey group, happy to be here and just joined today.  Eagle Scout dad with a Tenderfoot son in the troop.  I have done my DD on this requirement, and I am looking for feedback on further interpretation of the requirement.  From other postings, it seems the consensus is that covering two of the activities in one outing is generally permitted.  For example, an out and back plan of an overnight backpacking trip, two + miles up 1,000' of gain, camping overnight, and returning two + miles down the next day should satisfy both the 4-mile backpacking trip and the hiking of 1,000' elevation gain. 

What is getting to me is the wording in requirement 9 a and b itself.  9a says camp 20 nights "at designated scouting activities or events" and 9b says "on any of these camping experiences".  It ties the two together and if you are being picky about wording, these two 9b activities have to be done at a troop sanctioned event and cannot be completed independent from (ie. two or three of us dads and our boys out for a weekend of bonding such as the backpacking example above).  Of note, my son has well over 20 nights camping WITH HIS TROOP (9a completed); none of which were aimed at 9b.  All of his hiking and backpacking MB requirements can be done independent of the troop's plans, but it appears this MB requirement relies on the troop's planning to achieve this specific requirement. 

To me, the requirement isn't ambiguous; it is very clear.  Can anyone hypothesis the value of requiring this to be completed as a troop outing while the hiking and backpacking MB excursions don't?  If anything, a troop may plan a 1,000' climb while another scout favours the 15-mile bike-ride.  He is now at the mercy of the consensus of the troop.

Do some of you MB counsellors accept independent excursions for 9b, if the 20 nights with the troop have already been recorded?

Any/all interpretations are welcomed and looking forward to many years on this forum.

Sincerely, 

🔥🔥🔥🦅

 

[RememberSchiff]

@ThreeFiresEagle welcome to scouter.com

[DuctTape]

You are correct that the Requirement as written is unambiguous. The activities in 9b must be done on the trips in 9a.

As far as being held to the mercy of the troop, I would say the Scouts should plan the outings as a patrol not the troop. The scout can and should motivate the patrol to do preferred activities with their patrol. If the patrol members want different things, then perhaps the makeup of the patrols is an issue. This is separate from the mB requirement question.

And welcome to the virtual campfire!

[T2Eagle]

One thing to note is that the requirement specifies a scouting activity, it doesn’t say with the troop.  So these nights, and their corresponding activities can be done within scouting but outside the troop.  That could mean OA, jamboree, provisional scout at a summer camp, council contingents to high adventure, or just tagging along with another troop where he has a buddy.

Broadly, I haven’t seen many scouts struggle with 9b if they are easily completing 9a.  Where are you located, and what does your troop do on campouts that they’re not getting these things in?  
 

My theory on the why of the tied requirements is that it’s designed to do what it demands —- encourage a troop or patrol to seek a variety of adventures, not just go out and plop at the same park or scout reservation every month.  And since it’s the scouts not the adults who should be planning their activities, they all have some incentive, beyond the obvious quest for adventure, to build consensus and get out and do enough of a variety that everyone can satisfy both the requirements and their own particular wanderlust.

[Jameson76]

To refresh everyone's memory, this is 9b

(b) On any of these camping experiences, you must do TWO of the following, only with proper preparation and under qualified supervision.
(1) Hike up a mountain, gaining at least 1,000 vertical feet.
(2) Backpack, snowshoe, or cross-country ski for at least 4 miles.
(3) Take a bike trip of at least 15 miles or at least four hours.
(4) Take a nonmotorized trip on the water of at least four hours or 5 miles.
(5) Plan and carry out an overnight snow camping experience.
(6) Rappel down a rappel route of 30 feet or more.

A troop leadership group planning / doing normal outings should be able to have these occur.  As noted they can occur with the troop, lodge, summer camp, high adventure, etc.  Out troop is in the southeast, been a leader for many years, none of the scouts has ever done #5.

Now we do regular trips to the mountains so #1 happens, at least 2 "backpacking" outings annually so #2 happens, we do a kayak trip and summer camp does rafting so #4, and many scouts take climbing at camp so #6

Key is these should be part of the program and not require special planning to achieve

 

[fred8033]

10 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

My theory on the why of the tied requirements is that it’s designed to do what it demands —- encourage a troop or patrol to seek a variety of adventures, not just go out and plop at the same park or scout reservation every month.  And since it’s the scouts not the adults who should be planning their activities, they all have some incentive, beyond the obvious quest for adventure, to build consensus and get out and do enough of a variety that everyone can satisfy both the requirements and their own particular wanderlust.

Agreed and extended. 

#1  It's also to encourage scouting and discourage claiming family vacations to complete requirements.  This is a continual battle in scouting ... often with the parents chasing requirements.  ... Also, proper supervision?  Proper execution? (scouts leading, not adults, etc).  

So for your example, yes it's okay to have two or three dads with their sons doing a special campout to complete the requirements as long as the scouts talk to their merit badge counselor and/or scoutmaster to make it a designated scouting activity; with a strong preference to get the approval before the event.  IMHO, the merit badge counselor would be primary as the MBC signs off on the requirement / expectations.  If I was the MBC, it would be the that the scouts make the plans and are the driving force in the event; that the activity was more scout-like and less vacation / resort like.  ... On the flip side, the scoutmaster can approve it as a "scouting activity".  It just gets muddied then as the scout confirmed with the scoutmaster, but the MBC might not accept the event as completing the requirement for some other reason.

#2  One final note ... BSA requirements are legalistic because everyone is always gaming the system, but our working with scouts is NOT to be legalistic.  We help the scouts.  We encourage, guide and inspire the scouts.  We do have lots of flexibility so that we can encourage, guide and inspire.  ...  In this case, the scoutmaster / MBC can wave their magic wand and say it's a designated scout activity.  ... In this case, it's a kind heart that would be talking with the scout to see if a different path exists to complete the requirements.  

Edited February 7 by fred8033

[PACAN]

Actually #1....if it is designated an official scouting activity, the Dads need to be registered with the BSA under the new rule on who can camp overnight.

 

Also under #1 completing requirements must be done as a Boy Scout.  There is language in the GTA that requires requirements to count if and only if done while a Boy Scout so parents can't claim their youth did that one as a 6 year old on a school trip. 

[DannyG]

3 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

To refresh everyone's memory, this is 9b

(b) On any of these camping experiences, you must do TWO of the following, only with proper preparation and under qualified supervision.
(1) Hike up a mountain, gaining at least 1,000 vertical feet.
(2) Backpack, snowshoe, or cross-country ski for at least 4 miles.
(3) Take a bike trip of at least 15 miles or at least four hours.
(4) Take a nonmotorized trip on the water of at least four hours or 5 miles.
(5) Plan and carry out an overnight snow camping experience.
(6) Rappel down a rappel route of 30 feet or more.

A troop leadership group planning / doing normal outings should be able to have these occur.  As noted they can occur with the troop, lodge, summer camp, high adventure, etc.  Out troop is in the southeast, been a leader for many years, none of the scouts has ever done #5.

Now we do regular trips to the mountains so #1 happens, at least 2 "backpacking" outings annually so #2 happens, we do a kayak trip and summer camp does rafting so #4, and many scouts take climbing at camp so #6

Key is these should be part of the program and not require special planning to achieve

 

Agreed. If your troop is scheduling monthly camping trips, this should be easy to achieve. Our troop has had done all 6 activities at least once in the last 2 years. If you never accomplish any of these on any camping trips, you should work with your PLC to incorporate them. 

[ThreeFiresEagle]

I appreciate everyone's feedback; for the theory provided by T2Eagle, as it specifically addressed my question, for the detail laid out by Fred, for Pacan's reminder that scout safety is priority, and for DuctTape's welcome into the community.  Others may have missed the mark on my post but that's ok, your input and suggestions are valued too!

To be clear, I have no concern that the troop is not going to organize an event that meets this requirement, and I did not intend to imply as such.  Just stating that it hasn't happened yet but also, since my scout is eager to pursue his hiking and backpacking merit badges and this requirement (9b) coupled with the example in my original post could be a great opportunity for him to get his feet wet in preparation for both of those merit badges, it is unfortunate that it would not/could not/may not count towards Camping 9b if not done as part of a troop/patrol activity, which is why my question was phrased as such.   

To address the importance of having the scouts lead the planning, no disagreement there.  We sometimes find they need some gentle guidance to let them realize the same outcome that you "expected" all along, and there is nothing wrong with that.  For example, if a troop or patrol needs to plan a hike to meet a requirement, that can be done literally anywhere.  If you give them three options for where they can plan it and suggestions of how they can plan it, then they can decide which one they will plan, and then they will have met both the requirement and the spirit of the intent, all while staying well within the limitations of the SM/ASM.  Long run-on sentences but I think we are all in alignment on letting the boys do their work.

More simply put, I am registered with both my younger son's pack as a DL and with my older son's troop as a MBC.  Any independent activities that my son does, get prior approval for and signed for by other leaders, be it SM/ASM/or another MBC.  However, as a MBC myself, I may one day be challenged with the same question I posed above, and I want to be prepared to defend the requirement's intent as written, which I why I ultimately joined the forum and asked for a discussion on the matter.  

Thank you to all who responded, and again, looking forward to many more conversations with you fine people.

Sincerely, 

🔥🔥🔥🦅

 

[T2Eagle]

16 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

 

A troop leadership group planning / doing normal outings should be able to have these occur.  As noted they can occur with the troop, lodge, summer camp, high adventure, etc.  Our troop is in the southeast, been a leader for many years, none of the scouts has ever done #5.

 

 

Funny, we’re in NW Ohio.  I don’t think any of our scouts haven’t done #5.  We plan at least one or two winter tent camps where we hope to get snow.  We’ve had a few of years where the number is it’s higher than that, irrespective of our plans.
 

Regarding MBC discretion, I don’t get too literal on #5.  If it was truly cold I’ll give a scout credit.  If it drops into the low teens or single digits I figure there had to be some snow nearby, even if I didn’t personally see it

Edited February 8 by T2Eagle

[DannyG]

@ThreeFiresEagle It seems you plenty of experience in camping and outdoors as well as in Scouting. You would appreciate the difference between camping on your own and some friends vs. camping with a Scout group. Camping is an Eagle-required merit badge. I believe the spirit behind the requirement is to get the scout acclimated and working with the troop on their outings. Also incorporating some of the adventures like backpacking, paddle craft, climbing, etc. Not only building on the scout's individual camping skills, they are working with their peers to accomplish similar goals building interpersonal skills. If you didn't incorporate the troop, you could go camping for the next 10 weekends for 2 nights each on your own. How does that help the troop? What learning opportunities are you missing out on? Hiking and Backpacking are more individual pursuits, as the many of optional merit badges are. Not every scout is going to pursue them, just like not every scout is going to undertake Wood Carving, Music, Chemistry, etc. The difference is intentional.

In my experience I never had the question asked before. Because we incorporate 9b requirements on enough of our troop outings, they will naturally occur just by participating in the required number of camping trips.