Membership, developing a culture of growth... Is national on the right track? Doubtful... See Philmont Training

[Ojoman]

17 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Your posts above are neither. As you quote me telling you previously above. Asking you to stop attacking a fellow scout's character is frankly something that shouldn't even need to be said at all, yet here we are. Attacks are not nice. Being asked to stop attacking isn't not-nice.

Every time you say girls are ruining the program for boys, you're reducing our chances of growing membership and creating a culture of growth. You're spinning that wheel of cause and effect every time you say that here. So please stop. Let's move forward.

Some folks will always be resistant to change. That's their opinion and at the present time those folks can continue to run single gender programs. World Scouting has been co-ed for many decades and it has worked out well. The BSA is a Johnny come lately on that score. There have been hundreds of girls now that have earned Eagle or been elected into the OA and who have held leadership positions. I think that is GREAT! The folks in favor of this are many and that is a good thing. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

Just now, Ojoman said:

Some folks will always be resistant to change. That's their opinion and at the present time those folks can continue to run single gender programs. World Scouting has been co-ed for many decades and it has worked out well. The BSA is a Johnny come lately on that score. There have been hundreds of girls now that have earned Eagle or been elected into the OA and who have held leadership positions. I think that is GREAT! The folks in favor of this are many and that is a good thing. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with gender separation, when it is by choice. 

This is a basic right called freedom of assembly (association), guaranteed by the First Amendment.  I may associate with whomever I choose...

You don't like it?  Then work to get the Constitution re-written.  Once re-written, I'll support you 100%.

I do believe the current BSA model is neither well thought out, nor sustainable.

"Separate but equal" is a bad idea.  Chartering Organizations should have the option to have a single gender Troop( or Troops), or a blended Troop.  Both have pros and cons.  I do not believe there is "one size fits all" for what we are trying to accomplish.  Give Chartering Organizations, parents, and Scouts the options to choose what program they'd like to participate in, according to the dictates of their conscience.

And, it is not working out in reality.  Many B & G Troops under the same CO are really "blended" troops just doing all their stuff together.  And I am fine with it. 

Yes, it is against BSA policy, but I believe the freedom of assembly right is a higher ethical standard.

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

15 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I do believe the current BSA model is neither well thought out, nor sustainable.

"Separate but equal" is a bad idea.  Chartering Organizations should have the option to have a single gender Troop( or Troops), or a blended Troop.  Both have pros and cons.  I do not believe there is "one size fits all" for what we are trying to accomplish.  Give Chartering Organizations, parents, and Scouts the options to choose what program they'd like to participate in, according to the dictates of their conscience.

And, it is not working out in reality.  Many B & G Troops under the same CO are really "blended" troops just doing all their stuff together.  And I am fine with it. 

Agree completely. And like I was saying way back, I think de facto blended troops will become more and more common, making the situation less and less tenable, as groups of cub scouts cross over. I can't know for sure, of course, but I think it's going to turn into a situation like the one-night camping for cubs where the rules are widely ignored because they don't make sense to neither the people running the program (those who want what I think of as normal scouting in this case) nor the scouts themselves. Like we were also saying before the suffering of impermanence segway, the command structure also ends up being either confusing or wasteful.

The rules strike me as the outcome of a lot of wrangling in meetings between people who wanted different things. I fully expect this to be some kind of transitional phase followed by ditching the dual command structure requirement after people digest the change a little.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

The rules strike me as the outcome of a lot of wrangling in meetings between people who wanted different things. I fully expect this to be some kind of transitional phase followed by ditching the dual command structure requirement after people digest the change a little.

I agree. And it will dumb down "Patrol Method" to the point of the method used mainly to manage large groups. The economics of the program is already intuitively pushing Adults to get more personally involved in the scouts' activities, which is more like the cub program. Scouts will have less control of the program management and make fewer decisions for the outcome of the activities. It will be fun without a purpose.

This is what happened to the Canadian Scouts program about 30 years ago and the membership numbers have never recovered. They were the largest scouting program in the world before the changes.

A lot of people believe if we start following European models, the program will grow. But there are two facts to consider with that theory; first, the European units haven't been growing with the population except in the UK. Second, the adults in the European units aren't as involved in the management of the units as the North American scout units.  The scouts have more control, and more importantly, more responsibility for their program. 

Young adults just don't want to be part of a monitored after-school type of program. Fun can only be fun for so long. Without the structure of responsibility and independence, the program quickly gets boring. Which is why the majority of new Venturing Crews have a short life span.

If adults have a choice on how to build their units (segregated option for starters), those who are more into the program for the character values growth can build within the BSA program structure. Ironically, these are the types of units that grow membership. But those units will be few and far between, so membership nationally won't reflect the growth of those units. And like the changes we experienced in the last 60 years, National will continually tune the program to benefit the trends of the majority. Usually, away from adventure and more toward advancement because that kind of program is easier for the adults to measure and manage.

Barry

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

I - and I imagine everyone else here - thinks that holding on to the patrol method and preventing Webelos 3 is essential to delivering a quality program and, therefore, creating a culture of growth. This phenomenon of less scout-led pops up a lot here.

The question is, what practices and what organizational culture will create the conditions for quality scout-led programs for not just select units but for the BSA in general?

I think other who have been in the BSA longer than me have better opinions on specific organizational practices, but we shouldn't forget that what gets measured is what gets done. Our pack easily qualifies for JTE gold, but none of us are that proud because it doesn't consider what we're the proudest of. All the stuff in there is just the basics, and that's not the bar we hold ourselves to. Scouts BSA unit's success should be evaluated in large part on how well they have implemented the patrol method.

What we can do as individuals, though, is consciously create an organizational culture where the patrol method is The Way. Talk like it is (even when it isn't... yet), explain it to everyone new to scouting. Easier said than done of course, but without engagement from a critical mass of leaders of creating such a culture organizational practices won't make a difference.

[Eagledad]

57 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

 

What we can do as individuals, though, is consciously create an organizational culture where the patrol method is The Way. Talk like it is (even when it isn't... yet), explain it to everyone new to scouting. Easier said than done of course, but without engagement from a critical mass of leaders of creating such a culture organizational practices won't make a difference.

 

I wish that was the solution, but the problem is more of a lack of experience. And more importantly, a lack of a BSA youth Scouting experience. Even with all the training, inexperienced adults still struggle with the idea that youth managing their program activities actually develops character and integrity. Or, they believe it works, but just don't know how. 

So, these adults tend to fall on their training and start setting goals for scouts to advance. They build a First Class skills program where most of the activities have an objective of advancing in rank and stature. The adult nature tends to look at success by a person's stature. Advancement fits that perception perfectly. The adults drive a program of pushing advancement and rank. Advancement is one of eight methods, but it and leadership become the primary methods. 

What these adults are missing is the experience of managing the program and learning from the consequences of the decisions. And, The program loses a lot of fun because the adults will push what they think should be fun for scouts. One such scoutmaster called me after running his troop for 6 months asking what additional activities he could add on campouts. His scouts were getting bored with his usual program ideas, which were mostly advancement-driven. I asked him how much free time was scheduled. He asked me to define free time. I said a time when the scouts can do anything they want for their pleasure. He said that he wouldn't schedule anything like that because the scouts would just run off and get in trouble. Hmmm. 

That may be on the more extreme side, but it illustrates, the thinking of someone who doesn't have a youth experience. I would guess that about 80 of the troops have a First Class advancement type of program, which is a full program created around practicing scout skills. Most Troops have learned how to compensate their programs with some fishing, shooting, hiking, and so forth. But, that still leaves the older scout basically repeating the same program year after year bored out of their minds by age 14. This is why 14 is the magic age of moving on. Some quit, and some go on to Venturing Crews. The most common question I had from Scoutmasters while I was the District Membership Chairman was how to keep their older scouts. And they didn't like the answer that they needed to change their program. But, the other 20 percent had a different program where scouts ran a program based on adventure, not advancement.

I don't blame these adults, they are doing the best they can with what little they know. 

As the BSA brings in more adults without a youth scouting experience, the more the Patrol Method will get watered down. Eventually, the scouts of these watered-down programs will become leaders for their kids and push the watered-down method.

The forum has had this discussion several times over the last 25 years and the conclusion is always to keep the experienced scouters around to help the new leaders. But, then you have members in discussions like this one spouting that the old-timers they don't like change. Meanwhile, membership continues to drop and history repeats itself.

But, maybe that is OK. As this discussion brought to light, for many, the BSA's Mission of developing youth who make moral and ethical decisions is a lower priority than keeping up appearances with the culture. And it has been that way for many for 40 years. Statistics prove that keeping up cultural appearances costs membership. But, maybe that sacrifice is worth it for those leaders.

As for those of you who do want a more Patrol Method program, I suggest recruiting a couple of adults who were Boy Scouts as a youth. Also, get ahold of the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbook and use them as guides to a Youth Run Patrol Method program. They were required reading for all the participants in my Scoutmaster-specific courses.

Barry

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

35 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Even with all the training, inexperienced adults still struggle with the idea that youth managing their program activities actually develops character and integrity. Or, they believe it works, but just don't know how. 

That's why we who have youth scouting experience have to share our experiences with anyone who will listen. 

I mean, what's the alternative, keep the patrol method a guarded secret? Of course not. Nobody's saying that the patrol method needs to change. At least I haven't heard that. That would be nuts.

My purpose in reminding people of what they already know is that in order to keep up the good work, sometimes we need to refresh ourselves and raise some windhorse, create some feeling of flow, so that we don't get beaten down. Reconnecting to our purpose can help with that. 

Each moment is fresh. Each moment contains many possibilities. It is up to us to take right action.

Edited February 22 by AwakeEnergyScouter
'it' didn't have a clear reference