How does this happen?

[PACAN]

See the link.  12 y/o girl gets Eagle.   I have always wondered how much a youth gets out of the whole program when I see this.   Same goes for the relatively recent numbers of getting all the MBs.

 

https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/news/community/maine-girl-to-become-youngest-female-eagle-scout/97-0ab7560e-b967-458f-8011-9cbbf057e6bb 

[skeptic]

Well this is a media platform and really a bit misleading.  First, she has yet to finish the advancement, if the article is accurate.  Secondly, we have no idea, other than the vague mention of bias towards her being female, as to what her experiences actually have been.  Is she close to 13?  What activities has her unit done?  What is her experience outside of Scouting?  Is she a prodigy of some kind, or just driven?  The comments about some older people being rude and condescending are sad, but again out of context.  We really do not know how they came about, or how many actually occurred.  So, lets take a breath and see what the final outcome is, and more importantly if she completes it all, she stays with the program and contributes to others reach goals.  The young woman that sort of started this push, Sydney Ireland, is now a college graduate; "I’m a recent Amherst College graduate from New York City interested in how psychology influences politics and law. I have a deep interest in contemporary dance and choreography. Since I was eleven years old, I successfully advocated for the inclusion of young women in the Boy Scouts of America. I am a member of the Inaugural class of female Eagle Scouts. In the Spring semester of 2022, I studied abroad at the University of Cambridge, Pembroke College. I just completed an internship at the White House in the Office of Communications. "

The reality is that girls and boys are generally equally able to do most things, though some may be harder due to physical limitations.  It is no longer really an issue, other than the hype on the age, and we all know of a few boys that we kind of wonder about, and that actually likely are shallow representatives.  Give it a chance and see how she is ten years down the road.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

Some wandering thoughts on @PACAN's question, "How does this happen?"...

Well, as you know (but for the edification of others), the requirements can be completed in 19 months, with the following being the "limiting" factors...

- 30 days for Tenderfoot fitness requirements

- 28 days (four weeks) for Second Class fitness

- 28 days (four weeks) for First Class fitness

- 4 months to Star ("be active" requirement)

- 6 months to Life ("be active" requirement)

- 6 months to Eagle ("be active" requirement)

So, give or take a day or two, 1 year and 7 months to complete in minimum time since joining.

And what is the earliest one can join Scouts, BSA?

"Youth can join a Scout troop who have earned the Arrow of Light rank and are at least 10 years old, or have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10, or who are 11, but not yet 18 years old."

Parse that out, and a youth can join Scouts (begin working on requirements) on their 10th birthday (with either Arrow of Light or 5th grade complete.)

So, the earliest a youth can be awarded Eagle Scout rank is at 11 years and 7 months of age.  (Can you imagine that??)

The difficult part in accepting this is that we have in our minds what an Eagle Scout "ought to be."  And it is highly unlikely that most under the age of around 13 or 14 are "there."  (In my experience, they aren't "there" until about 15 or 16.)  But there is no objective way to measure that...

To quote an old mentor of mine:

"If the minimums weren't good enough, they wouldn't be the minimums."

The real issues in most of these cases lie in two areas:  leadership and merit badges 

From my observations, we (collectively, the adult volunteers in Scouts, BSA) do a horrible job in teaching/crediting leadership, and in holding to the requirements for merit badges as counselors.

Many Scouts hold a position of responsibility in a unit, but do little to nothing to fulfill the leadership requirement, because no one sets standards, expectations, and goals, and then holds their feet to the fire to meet those standards, expectations, and goals.

From the Guide to Advancement 2021, "4.2.3.4.3 Meeting Unit Expectations. If a unit has established expectations for positions of responsibility, and if, within reason (see the note under “Rank Requirements Overview,” 4.2.3.0), based on the Scout’s personal skill set, these expectations have been met, the Scout has fulfilled the requirement. When a Scout assumes a position, something related to the desired results must happen. It is a disservice to the Scout and to the unit to reward work that has not been done. Holding a position and doing nothing, producing no results, is unacceptable. Some degree of responsibility must be practiced, taken, or accepted."

Secondly, most Scouts (including me, when I was a youth) do not "earn" the merit badges.  That is, Scouts commonly do not complete the requirements AS STATED (nothing more, and nothing less.)  This is especially true at summer camp.  There is a whole lot of pencil-whipping going on.

G2A 2021: "7.0.0.3 ...Universal to all the merit badges, however, are the methods of advancement, personal growth, and adult association. Here we will focus on adult association, which is furthered through experiences involving discussion, counseling, and learning that are facilitated not only by a merit badge counselor, but also by the unit leader."

How many of your Scouts were awarded merit badges from a 15 year old at summer camp, without ever having the "adult association" that is supposed to be "universal to all the merit badges" ??  And how many sat around a picnic table for four or five days and were given a badge, without having completed the requirements AS STATED???

So, like you, when I see a really young Eagle Scout, or someone with all the merit badges, I know there is an extremely high probability they did not "earn" it.

If we want "better" Eagle Scouts, then we adults need to be better people to set the example for them, and hold them accountable for the requirements as stated.

Is there any one of us who consistently aligns our actions with our words in the Scout Oath and Scout Law?  No.  But I am only responsible for my own actions, decisions, and integrity.  I will try to keep my honor bright, and when I wake up tomorrow, I will try to be better than I was today.

I do find that my uncompromising attitude on requirements drives a lot of adults and youth away, to find the easier path that is out there.  As I tell many parents, it is easy to lie, cheat, and steal your way to getting an Eagle Scout patch.  But having the patch doesn't make you a good Scout. 

There are a handful that become true disciples of the Scout Oath and Law... and these become really capable Scouts and leaders.  Some even have Eagle Scout rank.

Your thoughts??

Happy New Year

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[qwazse]

20 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

… Your thoughts??

Thanks for asking.

In general, when someone asks me to decide between strangers on the internet and a scout with her leaders, I’m siding with the latter.

20 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

… So, the earliest a youth can be awarded Eagle Scout rank is at 11 years and 7 months of age.  (Can you imagine that??) …

Again, thanks for asking. Yes I can imagine that. I’ve met some extremely ambitious 10 year-old scouts. Most of those, however, tend to accumulate numerous distractions in a year. However, it is a big country, and therefore if complete advancement in 1.58 years is possible, then at least one 11.58 year-old who earns Eagle somewhere in Scouts BSA is probable.

20 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

… Secondly, most Scouts (including me, when I was a youth) do not "earn" the merit badges.  That is, Scouts commonly do not complete the requirements AS STATED (nothing more, and nothing less.)  …

… therefore, we can assume that you’ve mailed your sash and certificates back to national (given that you went on to discuss your honor).

20 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

… when I see a really young Eagle Scout, or someone with all the merit badges, I know there is an extremely high probability they did not "earn" it.

And you don’t assume that when you see an 18 year old with Eagle rank? It would seem to me that older scouts have more astute skills in deception. (E.g., the older scouts in our troop have mastered Capture the Flag.) Therefore, it is rational to infer a higher probably that any 17-year-old’s ECoH might be a reflection of a series of consecutive frauds than that any given 11-year-old has mastered flying below minimum standards.

Now, if 10 percent of all 12 year-old scouts were awarded Eagle, I would begin to suspect that rank advancement isn’t the lofty teen-appropriate challenge it was meant to be. But what we have here is news of the latest exception who proves the rule.

To me the only fraud being perpetrated here is ageism driven by an ecological fallacy that goes something like “Most 12 year-olds couldn’t pull this off; therefore, no 12 year-old can.”

[qwazse]

On 12/30/2023 at 9:24 PM, skeptic said:

…  The comments about some older people being rude and condescending are sad, but again out of context.  …

@skeptic, I noticed that you mentioned “some older people” instead of being sex-specific as the article was. I’m wondering … is your community is like mine where the critics of girls participating in BSA’s programs seem to be female?

[InquisitiveScouter]

15 minutes ago, qwazse said:

In general, when someone asks me to decide between strangers on the internet and a scout with her leaders, I’m siding with the latter.

Totally agree... and I did not ask anyone to decide between anyone or anything.  I merely noted observations and experiences... and I agree that all these decisions are local.  However, that was not the deeper point...  I'll endeavor to make the point here, after answering a few more of your charges 😜

17 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Again, thanks for asking. Yes I can imagine that. I’ve met some extremely ambitious 10 year-old scouts. Most of those, however, tend to accumulate numerous distractions in a year. However, it is a big country, and therefore if complete advancement in 1.58 years is possible, then at least one 11.58 year-old who earns Eagle somewhere in Scouts BSA is probable.

Sure, concur... but ambition (and enthusiasm) must never be confused with ability nor achievement. And I never remarked on probability of the event.  I merely noted the timeline, and asked the question...

21 minutes ago, qwazse said:

… therefore, we can assume that you’ve mailed your sash and certificates back to national (given that you went on to discuss your honor).

No, I sought to head it off long before that.  Since you are ignorant to my circumstances, I'll enlighten you...  I submitted my Eagle Scout application 11 days before my eighteenth birthday, but only at the urging of my Scouter mentors, Council Exec, and Council President.

I had decided not to submit it.  For a variety of reasons, including some of those I mentioned, but also, from a religious perspective.  You see, during my journey as a Scout (started at 13), I became a Christian (at 17), and I was learning quite a bit in my new faith.  I had reached a personal conviction that I did not deserve the Eagle rank...

But, when a group of my adult mentors (including the Council Exec and the Council President) found out about this, they staged an "intervention" (if you will).  They sat me down and explained that, that of the Scouts they knew, I was among the top in their regards.  And that, if anyone had attained what they thought was an Eagle Scout, I had.  My most treasured mentor spoke to me about law and grace...  In my thinking, by the law, I was not deserving of the rank.  But he asked me to see it more through a perspective of grace...  in that, no matter how hard we try, we can never fully live up to the Scout Oath and the Scout Law... none of us...  and if that is the case (which I know that it is), then who among us ever deserves to be afforded the honor?  This is where the grace (if you will) comes in... in that we must trust in the adult leaders around us that we have reached a level (or measure) of character, citizenship, and fitness that marks an Eagle Scout.  

I trusted in their words and judgement, and submitted the application.

I even said this in my Board of Review... and told them all about being caught "trading" merit badges as a camp staffer, and how I had seen this as disqualifying.  My Board of Review chose to see it in the way my mentors did... and they awarded me Eagle rank...

50 minutes ago, qwazse said:

And you don’t assume that when you see an 18 year old with Eagle rank? It would seem to me that older scouts have more astute skills in deception. (E.g., the older scouts in our troop have mastered Capture the Flag.) Therefore, it is rational to infer a higher probably that any 17-year-old’s ECoH might be a reflection of a series of consecutive frauds than that any given 11-year-old has mastered flying below minimum standards.

Now, if 10 percent of all 12 year-old scouts were awarded Eagle, I would begin to suspect that rank advancement isn’t the lofty teen-appropriate challenge it was meant to be. But what we have here is news of the latest exception who proves the rule.

To me the only fraud being perpetrated here is ageism driven by an ecological fallacy that goes something like “Most 12 year-olds couldn’t pull this off; therefore, no 12 year-old can.”

You read way too much into the post...

Yes, I assume the same with anyone who wears an Eagle Scout rank (or any person at all, to be frank)... but I reserve any judgement until I get to know the person.  You must get to know them, and see their character (and this takes time).  The real measure of a Eagle Scout is not in the achievement of any requirements... it is in the realization that asking perfection of anyone (including yourself) is impossible.  The real merit is in the continued striving to do so, and having the conviction to take up that mantle every day, through every failure and triumph...  to keep those lofty ideals ahead of you as an aimpoint; to recognize and admit your weakness in attaining them, yet continuing to strive for the mark...

I've not found that awareness or conviction in any 12 year-olds I have ever met...  and in only a few 22, 32, 42, 52, 62, 72, etc .... year-olds.

 

 

 

[skeptic]

Actually, it is mostly more elderly or seasoned males, seemingly unable to get out of the ruts of the past.  Of course, rereading some of the historical material on B.P. shows that he was open from the early period to a program for girls, and it was always a work in progress for he and his wife.  On the other hand, I have had seen some nuance that older women also have issue to a larger extent than younger.  In the end, they are youth, and they all deserve the challenges Scouting in its pure form offers, no matter the chromosomes.  JMHO of course.

 

[skeptic]

15 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Totally agree... and I did not ask anyone to decide between anyone or anything.  I merely noted observations and experiences... and I agree that all these decisions are local.  However, that was not the deeper point...  I'll endeavor to make the point here, after answering a few more of your charges 😜

Sure, concur... but ambition (and enthusiasm) must never be confused with ability nor achievement. And I never remarked on probability of the event.  I merely noted the timeline, and asked the question...

No, I sought to head it off long before that.  Since you are ignorant to my circumstances, I'll enlighten you...  I submitted my Eagle Scout application 11 days before my eighteenth birthday, but only at the urging of my Scouter mentors, Council Exec, and Council President.

I had decided not to submit it.  For a variety of reasons, including some of those I mentioned, but also, from a religious perspective.  You see, during my journey as a Scout (started at 13), I became a Christian (at 17), and I was learning quite a bit in my new faith.  I had reached a personal conviction that I did not deserve the Eagle rank...

But, when a group of my adult mentors (including the Council Exec and the Council President) found out about this, they staged an "intervention" (if you will).  They sat me down and explained that, that of the Scouts they knew, I was among the top in their regards.  And that, if anyone had attained what they thought was an Eagle Scout, I had.  My most treasured mentor spoke to me about law and grace...  In my thinking, by the law, I was not deserving of the rank.  But he asked me to see it more through a perspective of grace...  in that, no matter how hard we try, we can never fully live up to the Scout Oath and the Scout Law... none of us...  and if that is the case (which I know that it is), then who among us ever deserves to be afforded the honor?  This is where the grace (if you will) comes in... in that we must trust in the adult leaders around us that we have reached a level (or measure) of character, citizenship, and fitness that marks an Eagle Scout.  

I trusted in their words and judgement, and submitted the application.

I even said this in my Board of Review... and told them all about being caught "trading" merit badges as a camp staffer, and how I had seen this as disqualifying.  My Board of Review chose to see it in the way my mentors did... and they awarded me Eagle rank...

You read way too much into the post...

Yes, I assume the same with anyone who wears an Eagle Scout rank (or any person at all, to be frank)... but I reserve any judgement until I get to know the person.  You must get to know them, and see their character (and this takes time).  The real measure of a Eagle Scout is not in the achievement of any requirements... it is in the realization that asking perfection of anyone (including yourself) is impossible.  The real merit is in the continued striving to do so, and having the conviction to take up that mantle every day, through every failure and triumph...  to keep those lofty ideals ahead of you as an aimpoint; to recognize and admit your weakness in attaining them, yet continuing to strive for the mark...

I've not found that awareness or conviction in any 12 year-olds I have ever met...  and in only a few 22, 32, 42, 52, 62, 72, etc .... year-olds.

 

 

 

I find your discussion astute, and agree that age is, as many say, just a number.  Of course, in parts of the world that number in regard to youth is varied in its validity for some involvements.  

In over fifty years in Scouting, more than 45 as an adult, I have had the pleasure of meeting many fine youth and even mentored a fair share, or I hope so.  Part of that has been as happened sitting on local Eagle boards, likely at least fifteen or so.  Also attended numerous Eagle dinners of recognition and visited with Eagles of all ages, from 13, completed just short of that age, to actually home from college.  while the older youth were more on point overall, I still remember one that was just barely 13 at his board.  His responses were more focused and mature than most of the many older youth on whose boards I sat.  You never know, and to simply use age, or for that  matter, gender as your only guideon is foolish in my view.  We need to build on these young minds and challenge them, no matter.  My generation has not done a good job for the most part, and it is sadly reflected in our societal woes.  Thus, Scouting's survival and reincarnation, if you will, is imperative, and age and gender should NOT be a major factor.  

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

… I've not found that awareness or conviction in any 12 year-olds I have ever met...  and in only a few 22, 32, 42, 52, 62, 72, etc .... year-olds. …

But that’s the flaw of an ecological hypothesis, you or I may not have seen sufficiently refined ideals in any 12 year old that we’ve met. But ours is at best a sample of maybe a thousand. If generalizable, that gives us an upper limit of 0.1%. Multiply that by the tens of thousands of crossovers that have transpired during our scouting careers, and we shouldn’t be surprised that one or two made the cut a year and a half later.

P.S. - Thanks for sharing your story. I did not intend for what I said to be an ad homenim. My point was that it is incumbent on recipients of grace to be just as charitable towards those scouts who the media has chosen to highlight along with their leaders. We’re in no position to second-guess your EBoR (or the BoR’s of the ranks leading up to it); and, therefore, are obligated to support the scout and leaders in the OP.

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 minutes ago, qwazse said:

But that’s the flaw of an ecological hypothesis, you or I may not have seen sufficiently refined ideals in any 12 year old that we’ve met. But ours is at best a sample of maybe a thousand. If generalizable, that gives us an upper limit of 0.1%. Multiply that by the tens of thousands of crossovers that have transpired during our scouting careers, and we shouldn’t be surprised that one or two made the cut a year and a half later.

P.S. - Thanks for sharing your story. I did not intend for what I said to be an ad homenim. My point was that it is incumbent on recipients of grace to be just as charitable towards those scouts who the media has chosen to highlight along with their leaders. We’re in no position to second-guess your EBoR (or the BoR’s of the ranks leading up to it); and, therefore, are obligated to support the scout and leaders in the OP.

Agreed.

[PACAN]

Lots of interesting thoughts.   We do not know her exact age but personally I have never seen any new scout hit the ground running and do their 1st PT test the afternoon of crossover to start the clock.  Those who are eager to get requirements done usually have a parent help them manage their advancement particularly when it comes to MBs.      Clearly the advancement program has changed that assists in this happening.     MB events where you can get 5 or 6 at a time (for a fee), Summer camps, and being able to work on all ranks at the same time etc.

 

JMHO.

 

The missing thing I see in this is at the bottom of the article

The Boy Scouts of America declined to comment on discrimination on the basis of sex within the Eagle Scout process. 

[SSScout]

*sigh*

So much philosophical water under the metaphoric bridge. 

Way back when I was working on my Stegasaurus Husbandry Merit Badge,  my Troop was a very active outdoors Troop. Like I am sure many of you, our adult leaders/parents were veterans of the Great Depression, WW2, Korean war....   I remember one winter campout, snow on the ground, we were going to the back woods of one of our leaders.  And just before, we were told we would have a "guest Troop" camping with us.  A GIRL SCOUT TROOP.   Who'd a guessed?   All the Girl Scouts I knew back then sold cookies and held fashion parties (Not that I knew too many Girl scouts).  So it seemed some lady parents of my acquaintance (really!) were outdoor people !  So a dozen BOY Scouts and about a dozen GIRL Scouts set up camp , in a foot or 18"  of snow, back in the woods.  I remember a certain division of labor.  BSA chopped wood, hauled water, GSUSA set up the campfire and such.  There was an amazing cooperation present thru out, but....  They brought  chili/stew frozen in used milk cartons, which thawed out and cooked over the fire very nicely. Suitably impressed, we BSA fried eggs and sausage and biscuits for breakfast.   Hikes for nature study,  we each went home that weekend, I think, with a new appreciation for at least some of our schoolmates.   I am sorry to say, that was a one time event,  I can not say why, but it did not happen again. 

Earning Eagle is another thing entirely.  I worked and earned the ranks, figured out what Merit Badges were, and earned some at summer camp.  Woodworking (woggles)  , made a woven seat stool.  Found some MBcs (had to call Council for phone numbers), did Surveying, Aviation,,,,  Then a new Scout joined the Troop.  His dad was a Naval Officer who came to Troop meetings in full uni,  scrambled eggs  on the cap.  The kid announced (!) that he had done the math and would be Eagle in  X months on  Y day !   Well, us older Scouts got together and discussed this.  After many years of just enjoying the camping, hiking etc.  we realized this new kid could end up being the First Eagle of this Troop !  We decided that wasn't going to happen, so we started to work.  The new kid became the third Eagle, about a year behind his schedule.  Competition can be a motivator.

[InquisitiveScouter]

15 minutes ago, SSScout said:

*sigh*

So much philosophical water under the metaphoric bridge. 

Way back when I was working on my Stegasaurus Husbandry Merit Badge,  my Troop was a very active outdoors Troop. Like I am sure many of you, our adult leaders/parents were veterans of the Great Depression, WW2, Korean war....   I remember one winter campout, snow on the ground, we were going to the back woods of one of our leaders.  And just before, we were told we would have a "guest Troop" camping with us.  A GIRL SCOUT TROOP.   Who'd a guessed?   All the Girl Scouts I knew back then sold cookies and held fashion parties (Not that I knew too many Girl scouts).  So it seemed some lady parents of my acquaintance (really!) were outdoor people !  So a dozen BOY Scouts and about a dozen GIRL Scouts set up camp , in a foot or 18"  of snow, back in the woods.  I remember a certain division of labor.  BSA chopped wood, hauled water, GSUSA set up the campfire and such.  There was an amazing cooperation present thru out, but....  They brought  chili/stew frozen in used milk cartons, which thawed out and cooked over the fire very nicely. Suitably impressed, we BSA fried eggs and sausage and biscuits for breakfast.   Hikes for nature study,  we each went home that weekend, I think, with a new appreciation for at least some of our schoolmates.   I am sorry to say, that was a one time event,  I can not say why, but it did not happen again. 

Earning Eagle is another thing entirely.  I worked and earned the ranks, figured out what Merit Badges were, and earned some at summer camp.  Woodworking (woggles)  , made a woven seat stool.  Found some MBcs (had to call Council for phone numbers), did Surveying, Aviation,,,,  Then a new Scout joined the Troop.  His dad was a Naval Officer who came to Troop meetings in full uni,  scrambled eggs  on the cap.  The kid announced (!) that he had done the math and would be Eagle in  X months on  Y day !   Well, us older Scouts got together and discussed this.  After many years of just enjoying the camping, hiking etc.  we realized this new kid could end up being the First Eagle of this Troop !  We decided that wasn't going to happen, so we started to work.  The new kid became the third Eagle, about a year behind his schedule.  Competition can be a motivator.

So, did you get your Stegosaurus Husbandry Merit Badge??  😜 

 

Edited January 2 by InquisitiveScouter

[SSScout]

aww, it was an incomplete..... It was a tail dragger...

[DuctTape]

The only merit badge I received that I can say I probably did not truly earn was Basketry. 

The  was done at summer camp. At the time I recall 2 requirements:

1. Make a basket.

2. Cane a chair seat.

For #1, we used a kit with a wooden base.

For #2, we weaved criss-cross strings over a square platform.

 

Afterwards, as an older scout I learned how to make an actual basket without a kit... Significantly more complex. I also learned to cane a seat from my father as he would restore antique chairs as a hobby. Wow was that a complex process. 

I never completed an entire chair seat myself, only did a few of the diagonal weaves with the cane. I did make multiple baskets of different designs over the years.