Cub Scout Program Updates Starting June 24, 2024

[PACAN]

Couple of thoughts:

Has anyone seen this group's "charter"?

Still need to see the requirements to see how leaders can get all the requirements accomplished.

Given the new BSA President's stated goal to increase membership back to the "old days", is this new revamping of the entire Cub advancement designed to improve recruiting or retention?   

What is the current Cub recruiting from age to age now?

How many youth join Cubs as a 10 year old now?

"tongue in cheek comment" - will the BSA allow an older youth to just join and skip all the ranks and just do Eagle rank requirements?  😉

[Armymutt]

6 hours ago, DannyG said:

I am interested to see how the new AOL requirements shakes out. Is it more of a full-year commitment? One gripe with the current AOL program is it is not a full-year program. It is a 6-month requirement, then get them ASAP into a troop. That's good for the Cubs who spent years learning about scouting. But is it enough for the kids who joined new in 5th-grade? They paid for a full-year program only to get rushed out the door to join a new unit.

 

The full-year program fee transfers to Scouts BSA.  They don't have to pay anything else to move up.  If you are referring to the Pack dues, then that's a failure of Pack leadership to determine where the AOLs won't participate and reduce dues accordingly.  Our last AOLs moved up after B&G and PWD, so they paid the same as everyone else.  The next group may transition before those events, so their dues will be reduced accordingly.  

[Eagle94-A1]

Regarding Pack Fees and Webelos 2s/AOLS, The pack I was did it two ways.  The older two were not charged anything except national fee, which transfered over to the troop,  Since they were leaving in December and January respectively. Youngest was charged a pack fee, but that was the cost of their AOL plaques in February. They got really, really nice ones.

 

[mrjohns2]

26 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Youngest was charged a pack fee, but that was the cost of their AOL plaques in February.

That is how we did it. Also, our dues mainly go to things like adult fees, so those don’t scale by the month. 

[CubHerder]

10 hours ago, Armymutt said:

Wait, seriously?  You regard standards as "just words on a page"? 

For Cub Scout standards, yes. Unless the organization, i.e., the BSA, provides provides resources to execute the plan, such as people or money, they are quite literally just providing words on a page.   

[CubHerder]

8 hours ago, DannyG said:

Yes and no. It is still the culmination of Cub Scouting, even if your child joins in 5th-grade and does the abbreviated version. There is extra work they have to do to catch up if they joined late. They have to earn Bobcat first; they have to earn Whittle Chip; then they have to do all of the other requirements including the things the other scouts have to do to prepare them for a Scouts BSA troop. It is a lot to accomplish, especially if you want to transition your AOL scouts into troops by early spring.

Yes, this is true, though I have not seen where it says that scouts need to earn their Whittling Chip to be awarded AOL.

I agree that AOL can be a lot of work, and it should be, they are 5th graders. My issue with treating it as a BIG DEAL is that you get the same award if you have been in Cub Scouts for six months or for six years. We have scouts who have attended every meeting, since Lions, for six years. We have other scouts that joined Cub Scouts late in 4th grade (too late to earn Webelos rank), and will most likely earn AOL by March. It is fine that they get the "5th grade rank" which is what the new program seems to imply, but personally I don't think the latter deserve the "Highest Award in Cub Scouting" compared to what the former put in. 

[Armymutt]

1 hour ago, CubHerder said:

For Cub Scout standards, yes. Unless the organization, i.e., the BSA, provides provides resources to execute the plan, such as people or money, they are quite literally just providing words on a page.   

BSA provides you a ton of literature on how to execute the plan.  Volunteers are the people and fundraisers provide the money, not that you need much.  I guess you ignore that whole A Scout is Trustworthy thing, right?  Why bother even doing anything?  Just click on the little boxes and go buy awards to hand out.

[yknot]

3 hours ago, CubHerder said:

I agree that AOL can be a lot of work, and it should be, they are 5th graders. My issue with treating it as a BIG DEAL is that you get the same award if you have been in Cub Scouts for six months or for six years. We have scouts who have attended every meeting, since Lions, for six years. We have other scouts that joined Cub Scouts late in 4th grade (too late to earn Webelos rank), and will most likely earn AOL by March. It is fine that they get the "5th grade rank" which is what the new program seems to imply, but personally I don't think the latter deserve the "Highest Award in Cub Scouting" compared to what the former put in. 

I think it's easy to get way too carried away with awards. While some things in cub scouting may take some perserverence, nothing is hard. It is no more difficult for a 10 year old to earn AOL than it is for a six year old to earn Tiger because it's an age appropriate progression and the skills are easily attainable by the particular age. This seems to be reaching for ways to make certain groups of kids seem more worthy than another. Cubs simply isn't built that way. 

[Eagle94-A1]

4 hours ago, CubHerder said:

For Cub Scout standards, yes. Unless the organization, i.e., the BSA, provides provides resources to execute the plan, such as people or money, they are quite literally just providing words on a page.   

Unless things have changed in 4 years since I was involved with Cubs, BSA offered all kinds of resources for Den Leaders. In addition to training, there was a "Program Helps" which contained den lesson plans for each meeting. They were great for new leaders as they provided information for everything you needed. As you got more comfortable as a leader, you could use it for a basis for the meeting, then expand up on the literature. Those books were so popular that I had folks from other youth organizations buying them to get ideas for their meetings.

As for people, that is what Roundtable is for.Experienced volunteers provide information and resources to conduct programs. I have not served as a RT commissioner in several years, but I still have folks contacting me for advice.

 

Now One thing I will grant you is the lack of classroom training. While online training provides info, it lacks what a Trainer who has "been there, does that, have the t-shirt" can bring to training. When I was training chair and running courses, I was able to bring in knowledgeable folks who could relate to the new volunteers, give them ideas and help them during training, and give them a resource outside of RTs.

[DannyG]

16 hours ago, CubHerder said:

Yes, this is true, though I have not seen where it says that scouts need to earn their Whittling Chip to be awarded AOL.

It is Scouting Adventure requirement #6

Quote

Demonstrate your knowledge of the pocketknife safety rules and the pocketknife pledge. If you have not already done so, earn your Whittling Chip card.

 

[DannyG]

16 hours ago, CubHerder said:

I agree that AOL can be a lot of work, and it should be, they are 5th graders. My issue with treating it as a BIG DEAL is that you get the same award if you have been in Cub Scouts for six months or for six years. We have scouts who have attended every meeting, since Lions, for six years. We have other scouts that joined Cub Scouts late in 4th grade (too late to earn Webelos rank), and will most likely earn AOL by March. It is fine that they get the "5th grade rank" which is what the new program seems to imply, but personally I don't think the latter deserve the "Highest Award in Cub Scouting" compared to what the former put in. 

I understand. However, AOL is meant to be the culmination of the Cub Scout program. These are the skills they need to complete Cub Scouts and continue Scouts BSA. Really though, as a cub scout grows through the younger ranks, a lot of the skills are repeated and built upon as they grow older. For instance Wolf learns square knot. Bear adds two-half hitches and taut-line hitch. To earn Arrow of Light they have to learn square knot, two-half hitches, taut-line hitch, and bowline. It is the same requirement whether they joined in 2nd grade or 5th grade. The difference is were they able to practice knots over 4 years, or  did they cram them all into the last year? Surely the scout that joined earlier is going to have a wealth more experience. The AOL award is going to mean more to them. Not only in skills, but all the activities and experiences along the way. While the new scout may wonder what the big deal is.  You can't turn back the clock and send a newly joined 5th grader back to Lions. There isn't room in the program to hold them back. So you give them the award for completing AOL "the 5th grade rank" and wish them luck as they grow older. The flipside is to send off all AOLs with no recognition for completing Cub Scouts highest rank. It's just the "5th grade rank".

Edited November 15, 2023 by DannyG

[yknot]

6 hours ago, DannyG said:

I understand. However, AOL is meant to be the culmination of the Cub Scout program. These are the skills they need to complete Cub Scouts and continue Scouts BSA. Really though, as a cub scout grows through the younger ranks, a lot of the skills are repeated and built upon as they grow older. For instance Wolf learns square knot. Bear adds two-half hitches and taut-line hitch. To earn Arrow of Light they have to learn square knot, two-half hitches, taut-line hitch, and bowline. It is the same requirement whether they joined in 2nd grade or 5th grade. The difference is were they able to practice knots over 4 years, or  did they cram them all into the last year? Surely the scout that joined earlier is going to have a wealth more experience. The AOL award is going to mean more to them. Not only in skills, but all the activities and experiences along the way. While the new scout may wonder what the big deal is.  You can't turn back the clock and send a newly joined 5th grader back to Lions. There isn't room in the program to hold them back. So you give them the award for completing AOL "the 5th grade rank" and wish them luck as they grow older. The flipside is to send off all AOLs with no recognition for completing Cub Scouts highest rank. It's just the "5th grade rank".

One of the things to consider is that a 10 year old has a much easier time learning all the knots than a six or seven year old. They aren't cramming anything -- they are simply mostly more capable of it by that age.

[fred8033]

23 hours ago, DannyG said:

... AOL is meant to be the culmination of the Cub Scout program. ...

Just starting my comment off yours.  My apologies, I'm not targeting you.  Just sharing my thoughts.

It's just an award and really not that special of an award.  Any kid that stays in and is mostly active earns AOL.  Also, parents do most of the work.  Any cooperative kid generally earns AOL.

I fear emphasizing AOL as a culmination or "highest award" perverts perception.  It makes people question the meat of the rest of the program if AOL is emphasized like that.  The real learning of scouting comes from the individuals doing activities independently as they mature.  Example - sleeping in a tent they setup during a thunderstorm.   Cubs started as a way for younger siblings to be in scouting while their older brothers did really cool things.  IMHO, we should get back to that.  Cubs is fun and family and some skills building.  ...  AOL?  Fine, but it's just not that big of a deal.  (Don't tell my kids I said that).

Edited November 16, 2023 by fred8033

[DuctTape]

My cub experience was vastly different from what I have been hearing the last few decades. Cubs.  for me was NOT a family affair, nor a Pack-centric unit.

We had a den which met weekly after school at the den leaders house for an hour or so, then walked home or our parents picked us up. There were a couple pack meetings throughout the year, maybe 2 or 3. Pinewood derby and B&G are the only ones I remember. There were also a couple pack campouts, but we mostly stayed with our den. I do not recall ever really interacting with another den.

Each den meeting we would do an activity, sometimes a continuation from the previous week. No "requirements" were ever signed off by parents. AOL was an extra award one could earn as a Webelos, and there was only one year of it. There were only 4 years of cubs, iirc, Bobcat, Wolf, Bear, and Webelos.

[Eagle94-A1]

42 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

It's just an award and really not that special of an award.  Any kid that stays in and is mostly active earns AOL.  Also, parents do most of the work.  Any cooperative kid generally earns AOL.

If you read the older literature, I would say pre-2008 but I do not remember exactly when it went from Cub Scout Basic Leader  Training to Cub Scout Specific Training, parents are not "do most of the work anyway." Rather they are suppose to start backing off, starting in 4th grade, and let the Cubs do more and more. It was recommended that Parents do not even sign off on advancement.

Sadly I am seeing this more and more. Only packs with  WDLs with the older training are doing it they way I was trained. Forgot to add, they have better retention in Scouts.

 

12 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

My cub experience was vastly different from what I have been hearing the last few decades. Cubs.  for me was NOT a family affair, nor a Pack-centric unit.

We had a den which met weekly after school at the den leaders house for an hour or so, then walked home or our parents picked us up. There were a couple pack meetings throughout the year, maybe 2 or 3. Pinewood derby and B&G are the only ones I remember. There were also a couple pack campouts, but we mostly stayed with our den. I do not recall ever really interacting with another den.

Each den meeting we would do an activity, sometimes a continuation from the previous week. No "requirements" were ever signed off by parents. AOL was an extra award one could earn as a Webelos, and there was only one year of it. There were only 4 years of cubs, iirc, Bobcat, Wolf, Bear, and Webelos.

I had a similar experience to the one you described in the early 1980s. Only difference was Cub Scouts was 3 eyars as Tigers did nto come out until 1982.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Eagle94-A1