Webelos to Scout transition times

[Armymutt]

Our current Webelos den will all be 10 by the end of July.  All are 4th graders now.  Technically, they could work through the summer, finish AOL up and move up to a troop in August.  What's your experience been with brand new 5th graders in a troop?  My own experience wasn't good, resulting in me leaving Scouts for a couple of years.  I want my kids to have a good time, which means there will be more criteria involved than just location.  The boys were bored at the Spookoree last weekend, which is one of the reasons I'm looking at this avenue.  

[Tron]

It really depends on the scout and on the troop. A mature 10 year old that powers through their AOL can in my experience crossover the 1st day of summer break between 4th and 5th grade and have absolutely no problems. What do you think about parent meeting and explain the options for the scouts and explain the risk/reward? When a go getter Webelos crosses over a year earlier than expected with their AOL they basically gain an extra year to get their Eagle.

[MikeS72]

2 hours ago, Tron said:

It really depends on the scout and on the troop. A mature 10 year old that powers through their AOL can in my experience crossover the 1st day of summer break between 4th and 5th grade and have absolutely no problems. What do you think about parent meeting and explain the options for the scouts and explain the risk/reward? When a go getter Webelos crosses over a year earlier than expected with their AOL they basically gain an extra year to get their Eagle.

All depends on when that scout turned 10.  The last requirement for AoL is "Be active in your Webelos Den for 6 months or Be 10 and a half years old."

While some Webelos may have turned 10 early in the 4th grade and are 10 1/2 by the end of the school year, some are still only a couple of months into their 10th year. 

[Eagle94-A1]

As @MikeS72 points out "Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old."  So the earliest based on Grade is December (BSA's computer system uses June 1 as the start of a school year, regardless of when they actually finish 4th grade).

If you go by year, it is theoretically possible to move them up by March of their 4th grade year, And since Webelos is no longer required for Arrow of Light, you can immediately start work on AOL as soon as they turn 10.

We did the following based upon the old CS training I did back in the day. Sadly the current training doesn't really cover this like it should.

1. As soon as they move to 4th grade, begin treating them as a patrol. Let them elect a denner to help things. Start telling the parents to back away That is the hard part as they have the most difficult time.

1a. If you have a Den Chief, let the Cubs go to him, and let him supervise and plan things. That way you can show parents what Scouting is about, what Scout led can do, etc. HOWEVER YOU NEED A GOOD DEN CHIEF!!!!!! (major emphasis) I lucked out, I had phenomenal den chiefs, and even gave up one to the Webelos Den because the WDL quit, and the folks taking over were not campers. BUT My pack also had horrible DCs, one of whom was asked never to return.

2. Start having the Cubs run some of the meetings, and remind the parents to let their Cub shine.

3. If you have any district Webelos activities, do them. And if they are competitions, remind the parents that this is for the Scouts. I remember one event where the Webelos were supposed to build a catapult and launch tennis balls in a field. One den had engineers as DLs, and you could tell the engineers designed and built it, and not the Cubs. Long story short we changed catapult rules because of them. ( their catapult shot a tennis ball out over the field, some trees, a building, and into the lake). Again remind parent s to let the Cubs do the work.

4. Start visiting and camping with troops as 4th graders. I lucked out, my boys were Webelos in the brief period were Webelos could camp with troops at camporees. Some camporees even designed special Webelos only events for them, and allowed them to try their hand on different events, time permitting. BEST. RECRUITING. TOOL. EVER! (yeah I'm shouting now. :)  Think it is mistake they reverted to the old policy..) But do joint activities.

5. If your day camp has the faculties and staff, they can create a Webelos Woods program, another way to keep them pumped up.

6. Visit and camp with more troops as 5th graders. One popular acticvity was CASTAWAY ACTIVITY BADGE. We had Scouts teach the skills to the Webelos, and had them camp with the troop during our wilderness survival weekend.

7. We aimed for a December-January Crossover. Youngest's den was a little behind and did a February cross over. But youngest essentially stopped attending meetings in December as he had everything needed for AOL. He started hanging with his brother's troop.

 

Good luck.

[Armymutt]

I misread the 6 months since completing 4th grade, so it would be December.  The den is sort of being run as a patrol.  There's only 3 active and 1 part-timer in the den.  Since the parents of the 3 active kids are the DL, CC, CM, Treasurer, and Secretary, there's not much effort required in keeping the parents back.  I'd like them to work together more as a den, especially camping, but there's passive resistance from the DL in the form of phoning things in.  We don't really have any other options to choose from, so we make do.  

I wish we could get a den chief.  The troop and pack for our CO operate completely separately.  I couldn't tell you the name of the Scoutmaster.  

[Double Eagle]

A couple of things on this.  No hurry to get them to cross over.  I'm more in favor of late (May) cross overs and enjoy the open calendar to do things as an AOL den besides requirements.  With early cross overs (Dec - Mar), the pack doesn't benefit from having the AOL den participate.  They can do some great things to keep the other dens enthused.

  Hard to say they operate as a patrol with 3 scouts, just my thoughts.  There are no feeder packs so take the extra calendar time to visit troops in the area and not the same chartered org troop.  Troops should be inviting your AOL to events and actively recruit them.  A troop meeting time and day may a decision point for a scout/family.  

As for den chiefs, talk to local troops or hit up a commissioner for the need.  Den chiefs need to be in position for a year (I think) to get awarded their DC award.   

[Eagle94-A1]

3 hours ago, Double Eagle said:

A couple of things on this.  No hurry to get them to cross over.  I'm more in favor of late (May) cross overs and enjoy the open calendar to do things as an AOL den besides requirements.  With early cross overs (Dec - Mar), the pack doesn't benefit from having the AOL den participate.  They can do some great things to keep the other dens enthused.   

My experience, and research done in the past points this out, Cubs who cross over no later than March tend to go to summer camp, which retains them longer. I grew up in the old 3 year Cub Scout Program, and when I crossed over to a troop, 1. My family could not afford the lump sum payment required to go to summer camp and 2. My mom did not know any of the Troop Scouters, and didn't feel comfortable letting me go even if they could afford it.

And my parents weren't the only ones with these issues as the BSA's research in the late 1980s, early 1990s shows. This is why when BSA revamped the Webelos program into an 18-24 month program in the 1990s, they encouraged Cross Over NLT March. 

I was trained as a WDL in the late 1990s when it was a full day class that covered all the different positions. The emphasis on the Webelos Den Leader section was preparing the Webelos for that transition. If done, the Webelos 2s/AOLs are ready and chomping at the bit to Cross Over. My youngest felt restrained and resented a bit having to wait for his den to Cross Over. One thing that did help was putting the Webelos 1s in the senior Cub role model role. Not only did it help with them gaining confidence, it helped showed the parent what their Scouts are capable of.  In my experience the parents have the hardest time transitioning.

[T2Eagle]

My pretty long experience was crossover around March, first campout in April, another in May.  You want those campouts to be not too rigorous, fun, and at least one of them really focused on them learning how to be a part of the older unit.  A scout who has a miserable time on their first real campout will be much more likely to drop than continue.

Scouts BSA camping is often the first time in their lives a kid is away from home, and away from their parents, and away from their family, and responsible for taking care of all their own stuff.  A scout with two campouts with two good campouts under their belt is ready to do that for a week at summer camp.  Throwing all that at a kid for a week and not just two nights is a lot to ask and a roll of the dice.   We know from long statistics that a kid who goes to summer camp is likely to stick around at least another year.  So you really want to be strategic about getting them to and through that first summer camp.

To make this work you really need to know how the troop you're going to works, because your scout and your den are going to be folded into their culture and process.  

14 hours ago, Armymutt said:

I couldn't tell you the name of the Scoutmaster.  

You need to change this right away.  By the time you crossover you and your scout should be familiar with the troop, how it operates, what it expects, what its plans are for taking in crossover etc.  Go visit the troop, with and maybe without your scout.  Have solid, directed conversations with especially the Scoutmaster, but also the other parents hanging around the troop meeting.  If I was being thorough, I'd even ask if I and my scout could sit in and observe a PLC --- but that might be a bit much.  Your den should certainly be visiting troops, and good troops will have some events, like the Saturday afternoon of a campout or something similar that they can invite you to.  Our troop did a fair amount with our Pack.  But for Webelos in particular we usually invited them to the fun parts of our winter campouts like Saturdy afternoon tobogganing, hiking, cooking lunch outdoors, etc.  A taste of what's to come without all the hard work.

[Tron]

21 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

All depends on when that scout turned 10.  The last requirement for AoL is "Be active in your Webelos Den for 6 months or Be 10 and a half years old."

While some Webelos may have turned 10 early in the 4th grade and are 10 1/2 by the end of the school year, some are still only a couple of months into their 10th year. 

Absolutely true. and?

[Tron]

2 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

My pretty long experience was crossover around March, first campout in April, another in May.  You want those campouts to be not too rigorous, fun, and at least one of them really focused on them learning how to be a part of the older unit.  A scout who has a miserable time on their first real campout will be much more likely to drop than continue.

Scouts BSA camping is often the first time in their lives a kid is away from home, and away from their parents, and away from their family, and responsible for taking care of all their own stuff.  A scout with two campouts with two good campouts under their belt is ready to do that for a week at summer camp.  Throwing all that at a kid for a week and not just two nights is a lot to ask and a roll of the dice.   We know from long statistics that a kid who goes to summer camp is likely to stick around at least another year.  So you really want to be strategic about getting them to and through that first summer camp.

To make this work you really need to know how the troop you're going to works, because your scout and your den are going to be folded into their culture and process.  

You need to change this right away.  By the time you crossover you and your scout should be familiar with the troop, how it operates, what it expects, what its plans are for taking in crossover etc.  Go visit the troop, with and maybe without your scout.  Have solid, directed conversations with especially the Scoutmaster, but also the other parents hanging around the troop meeting.  If I was being thorough, I'd even ask if I and my scout could sit in and observe a PLC --- but that might be a bit much.  Your den should certainly be visiting troops, and good troops will have some events, like the Saturday afternoon of a campout or something similar that they can invite you to.  Our troop did a fair amount with our Pack.  But for Webelos in particular we usually invited them to the fun parts of our winter campouts like Saturdy afternoon tobogganing, hiking, cooking lunch outdoors, etc.  A taste of what's to come without all the hard work.

A good troop will have a calendar and be able to point a WDL to the most fun meetings but at the same time will allow potential crossovers to visit as often and to any meeting including the PLC. 

[Double Eagle]

One word of caution for late cross overs, contact the gaining troop early, say November, to inquire about summer camp location, cost, and penalty for late reservation.  The scout doesn't need to know about financial obligation just yet.  I've had some cross over and not go summer camp until they were established in troop, parents are good with the unit, and work towards the 1st year First Class rank so the next summer, they are working towards program and MB.

[Armymutt]

10 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

You need to change this right away.  By the time you crossover you and your scout should be familiar with the troop, how it operates, what it expects, what its plans are for taking in crossover etc.  Go visit the troop, with and maybe without your scout.  

I'm about 90% certain that we won't be moving to the troop at the current CO.  They don't have a girl troop yet, which will become a factor a couple years after my son moves up.  I've seen their SPL and am not impressed.  Severe lack of discipline in that troop.  The COR is about the public face of the troop.  I've spent three years rowing against the tide to keep the Pack afloat and am tired of fighting to make things run right.  I'm looking at a troop that is about 5 minutes closer to our house.  They utilize the patrol method.  It also has most of the Scouters in the district who are active on our side of town.  They have a few downsides, such as meeting in a pavilion that is hot in the summer and cold in the winter.  They also don't do fundraising when I last checked.  It's a huge troop, which can be a bit unwieldy.  My exposure to the troops is via the OA and being the SM for Cub Scout day camp, supervising the Scout volunteers.  It's given me a good insight into the various programs around.   

[NDW5332]

On 11/8/2023 at 9:49 PM, Armymutt said:

 I've seen their SPL and am not impressed.  Severe lack of discipline in that troop.

A couple of questions:  What do you mean by "lack of discipline" do you mean that the PLC/older scouts, and the adult leadership do not hold scouts accountable for their actions or behavior?  Or do you mean self discipline among the scouts?

"what is the average age of the troop, does it skew older or younger?

How old is the SPL, and how long have they been in the position? Were they appointed by the adult leadership, or were they elected by their peers? Our troop has had some SPLs that started out young and "green" and they've grown into themselves and grown into the role.  How are they supported?

[Armymutt]

12 hours ago, NDW5332 said:

A couple of questions:  What do you mean by "lack of discipline" do you mean that the PLC/older scouts, and the adult leadership do not hold scouts accountable for their actions or behavior?  Or do you mean self discipline among the scouts?

"what is the average age of the troop, does it skew older or younger?

How old is the SPL, and how long have they been in the position? Were they appointed by the adult leadership, or were they elected by their peers? Our troop has had some SPLs that started out young and "green" and they've grown into themselves and grown into the role.  How are they supported?

I mean that the Scouts act more like Cub Scouts than Boy Scouts.  I supervised a group of Scouts from across the district at our Cub Scout day camp.  The ones from our CO needed far more supervision.  They lacked motivation to get their tasks done without me having to check up on them.  I don't know what the average age of the troop is right now.  They have no interaction with us.  The SPL appears to be a high schooler - probably same age as the SPLs I had as a kid.  

[NDW5332]

On 11/10/2023 at 7:52 PM, Armymutt said:

I mean that the Scouts act more like Cub Scouts than Boy Scouts.  I supervised a group of Scouts from across the district at our Cub Scout day camp.  The ones from our CO needed far more supervision.  They lacked motivation to get their tasks done without me having to check up on them.  I don't know what the average age of the troop is right now.  They have no interaction with us.  The SPL appears to be a high schooler - probably same age as the SPLs I had as a kid.  

I'm a terrible person at gussing the age of a kid.  I flipped through my old highschool yearbook and saw my old SPL. My God, he looked 45 years old in 1991, and he had just turned 17.  A couple o years ago, Our troop now had an SPL  at 13 and our outgoing SPL just turned 18, so 5 years is a lot of time to mature and grow into Did you speak with the CO Troop's SM?to address your concerns?  Regarding the lack of motivation on tasks, what kind of tasks.   Was is a true lack of motivation, or was it a skill set gap and lack of training.   Were the Scouts "Voluntold" they'd have to help, or was it cheerful service? I find that volunteers are generally more motivated than kids that are told they have to give up their weekend.  Did you ask the Scouts what was going on?  How they felt about how the day camp was going, what did they think the adults could have been doing better?