Another fatal wound

[Mrjeff]

Wow, another fatal wound to the Order of the Arrow.  It looks like the National whoever realized that no matter how they propogandized, pushed and bullied the OA, they just couldn't handle the blowback from most of the local lodges concerning removing Native american regalia, clothing or dress (whatever is politically correct) during ceremonies.  So, in their wisdom and treachery,  banned all AIA activities at NOAC.  I guess whoever fails to realise that many or even most lodges really enjoy AIA activities and are dedicated to the dance, dress, music and ceremonies of the AIA.  It will be interesting to learn how this decision effects the number of NOAC participants and therefore the money.  It will be interesting to see just how many lodges that have been preparing for AIA events for years just don't bother attending. Just food for thought.  I would suggest that every Lodge Advisor call the national office and voice their opinions.   Oh, never mind,  they don't answer the phone😑

[Double Eagle]

This was a hot topic within our lodge as we are AIA heavy with native Americans in the lodge, dance teams, and drum competitions.  We have our lodge and same folks at Pow wows within 4 states.  We hold 6 NOAC national champions in Northern Drum Competition (2004, 2006, 2009, 2015, 2018, and 2022).  We also hold the NOAC 2022 Fancy Shall Competition dancer (female).  When we put on an AIA event for the lodge, section, or cub-heavy events, everyone is impressed and not one negative word about it.  BSA is losing support by droves with this one.  Not sure the attendance in Colorado will be the same with this AIA loss of participation.  Next thing you know we will have "order of social media" as wearing the sash with red arrow and word "arrow" will be offensive as a weapon instead of a woodland multi-tool.  It is time we preserve the traditions of the Order of the Arrow and stand strong on not changing what made it great for over a century.

[Eagle94-A1]

I know folks who have not missed a NOAC since they were first became Arrowmen and are now skipping out on Colorado.

I also know some lodges bring large contingents to compete in AIA events. I remembering one lodge had so many folks signing up that they did not have enough spaces. Almost all were competing in AIA events.

I do believe attendance will be low.

[Mrjeff]

I agree with you guys.  It's sad that some guy just does this without consideration for what the members want to do.

[yknot]

12 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Wow, another fatal wound to the Order of the Arrow.  It looks like the National whoever realized that no matter how they propogandized, pushed and bullied the OA, they just couldn't handle the blowback from most of the local lodges concerning removing Native american regalia, clothing or dress (whatever is politically correct) during ceremonies.  So, in their wisdom and treachery,  banned all AIA activities at NOAC.  I guess whoever fails to realise that many or even most lodges really enjoy AIA activities and are dedicated to the dance, dress, music and ceremonies of the AIA.  It will be interesting to learn how this decision effects the number of NOAC participants and therefore the money.  It will be interesting to see just how many lodges that have been preparing for AIA events for years just don't bother attending. Just food for thought.  I would suggest that every Lodge Advisor call the national office and voice their opinions.   Oh, never mind,  they don't answer the phone😑

I'm not sure BSA did that directly but since University of Colorado Boulder is one of the leading universities concerned with NA issues it's an appropriate place to hold NOAC but an unlikely place to host AIA type events. UCB's NA center basically led the fight with the NFL to change team names. 

[Eagle94-A1]

29 minutes ago, yknot said:

I'm not sure BSA did that directly but since University of Colorado Boulder is one of the leading universities concerned with NA issues it's an appropriate place to hold NOAC but an unlikely place to host AIA type events. UCB's NA center basically led the fight with the NFL to change team names. 

If the BSA's Powers That Be (PTB) didn't agree with this decision,  I bet NOAC would have been held elsewhere, This decision was made years ago, and they came up with a plan to phase out AIA. Look at ceremony teams today.

I know when the OA chapter came and picked up their gear and equipment out of storage I had, everything AIA related, except the drum, was left behind: ceremony regalia, dance regalia, regalia making supplies, etc. Stuff that took years to get the money to buy and make just left behind like it was garbage. I bet they took drum, despite having no singers,  because they can sell it for a lot, even used.

[SiouxRanger]

I have long held the belief that folks speaking (communicating to others) bear the burden of making themselves understood.

If I speak, I have to address my audience and speak in terms they understand.  And if they are children, well, tone down the legalese, and if Phd's, well ramp it up.

This forum is a wonder.  Such a useful thing. And It should be not only a means of communication, but also a means of education.

It is a useful tool to communicate amongst dedicated and vigorously involved scouters-we really care. (And without us, (volunteer led organization) what would Scouting be?))

Toast.

And "AIA"???

I figured that out maybe a month ago. (Did not find the answer today.) Nor can remember. Hate age.

Just suggesting that maybe a sentence of explanation to describe the acronyms would help educate those seeking knowledge in our forum but are just newbies. (And I am a 60ish (60 years scout in!) newbie and I struggle with "AIA."))

And maybe a sentence about the whole issue, what it was, what has changed…why the new policy/practice is good or bad..

 

[Mrjeff]

Sure my friend.  AIA is a common acronym used by Order of the Arrow members meaning American Indian Affairs.  Some my claim that this is offensive but our AIA chairman is an American Indian and uses the acronym freely.  The national OA leadership banned all AIA activities at the National OA Conference

[Mrjeff]

4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

If the BSA's Powers That Be (PTB) didn't agree with this decision,  I bet NOAC would have been held elsewhere, This decision was made years ago, and they came up with a plan to phase out AIA. Look at ceremony teams today.

I know when the OA chapter came and picked up their gear and equipment out of storage I had, everything AIA related, except the drum, was left behind: ceremony regalia, dance regalia, regalia making supplies, etc. Stuff that took years to get the money to buy and make just left behind like it was garbage. I bet they took drum, despite having no singers,  because they can sell it for a lot, even used.

That is sad and a very disappointing turn of events.

[fred8033]

I wish everyone the best.  Change can be very, very painful.  Personally, I enjoyed the OA events and ceremonies.  Using AIA folklore added character.  For long-time OA members, it's core to OA.

I also cringe and won't defend the OA AIA ceremonies when asked by others.  I personally don't want to be associated with it.  For new scouts and their families, it's an obstacle to overcome.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

I wish everyone the best.  Change can be very, very painful.  Personally, I enjoyed the OA events and ceremonies.  Using AIA folklore added character.  For long-time OA members, it's core to OA.

I also cringe and won't defend the OA AIA ceremonies when asked by others.  I personally don't want to be associated with it.  For new scouts and their families, it's an obstacle to overcome.  

Yes, I was an avid Ceremonies Team member in my youth, until turning 21 (back in 1987!).  Meteu was my favorite part, although I played each part at one time or another.  We had really bad outfits, with really bad headdresses.  We also used facepaint without regard to meaning.  We "played" Indian... I was ignorant to the issue of this being offensive, in a religious-sort-of-way.  (Although, I do think that card is played is little too much.  It is the default when someone wants to stop you from doing something they do not like.)  Now that my ignorance is gone, I do not support the use of most Native American elements in the Order of the Arrow.  Best to part ways with the practice and move on....

When I learned more about the roots of the OA, I found that there were no AIA elements in the beginning.  I would happily return to that, or, incorporate significant elements from American history.  I believe that could be easily done while maintaining the spirit of brotherhood, cheerfulness, and service.

Place names, including camps and campsites, should be fine, as long as they have local significance.

[mrjohns2]

On 10/16/2023 at 8:08 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

I do believe attendance will be low.

Fewer than 20 lodges (less than 10% of all lodges) participated in AIA events during the 2022 NOAC. Not a passion shared by more than 90% of all lodges. 

[Eagle94-A1]

@mrjohns2Can you show me where that stat came from?

 Also Can you provide me the info  from a NOAC for the 2018 NOAC?

Also total attendance from 2018 and 2022 would be nice as well if possible  I ask because 2018 was when National stated no more ceremonial regalia for AOL and Crossover Ceremonies, and mandated skits ceremonies  that seemed more like commercials. This 2018 rule caused so much of a ruckus in my lodge that folks refused to do those ceremonies. I have stated that many folks get their interest in the OA from those ceremonies, and it would kill ceremonies over time. 

Thanks in advance.

[mrjohns2]

9 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Also Can you provide me the info  from a NOAC for the 2018 NOAC?

NOAC staff on discord. I don’t have any of the numbers. 

[SiouxRanger]

On 10/16/2023 at 12:28 PM, Mrjeff said:

Sure my friend.  AIA is a common acronym used by Order of the Arrow members meaning American Indian Affairs.  Some my claim that this is offensive but our AIA chairman is an American Indian and uses the acronym freely.  The national OA leadership banned all AIA activities at the National OA Conference

Thank you my friend.

I appreciate the clarification. I don't miss too much, (check out my Scouting resume) but there is so much I just do not hear about current National Scouting issues not on the radar of my Council, and a bit of help by way of explanation helps me (decide to) engage in the conversation and to follow it,  AND LEARN.

This Forum has incredible power.

I just think that there are many "lurkers" (I do not like that term.  Sounds ominous.  I prefer "folks who are curious", but need written help envisioning why they should pay attention or engage in the discussion. And maybe take action.)

And this Forum can provide those explanations-from experienced, serious. life-long time Scouters. (Where else will they find it?)

The point of my post was that this Forum can be much more than just a discussion among very experienced, very knowledgeable Scouters "sitting around the campfire" of this Forum speaking terms with cryptic references to issues, all alluding to and having a the depth of the problems and their depth of knowledge of the Scouting program.  But NOT projecting any understand to folks And there is no problem with that.

But this Forum can be a vehicle of CHANGE.

But to do that, volunteers need to be motivated to make change.

And, where do volunteers learn WHY change needs to be made.

Here.

From you experienced Scouters.

THIS FORUM is perhaps the only existing vehicle of BSA change.

So the experienced and knowledgeable Scouters here need to give guidance 

And newbies need to understand that change need be made.

I'd just suggest that in your initial post, or an occasional follow-up, if the thread runs long, just mention why things are being discussed and why that is important.