Units should charge "all-in" dues for operations and council/national fees.

[Cburkhardt]

Units should collect “all-in” dues to pay for operations and national/local fees.

Everyone participating on this site knows we provide a huge financial bargain for our member families.  This becomes very apparent when comparing Scouting fees to other activities for youth.   

When we started our all-girl troop in DC in 2019, we decided to calculate the all-in cost of our year long-program (with the exception of campouts and summer camp).  This included purchase of things to keep our equipment inventory up-to-date, program materials and special activities and our annual dues to council/national.  This includes everything from award patches to refreshments at the court of honor.   We calculated the annual out-of-pocket cost at $400 for each girl.  We therefore collect $200 dues at the start of each academic semester and fully fund our program from that.  For monthly campouts and summer camp, we simply collect the break-even costs.  We average the weekend campout costs so it is always the same amount – to minimize confusion.

As a result, we do not conduct product sales or similar fund raisers – the conduct of which deforms program and chews through leader time and wallets.  Once a year we hold a coffee gathering of our families as our only fundraiser to help pay the dues for under-resourced girls.

When I posted this arrangement a few years back, a lot of folks thought this was outrageously expensive.  However, if we are honest about what all of us spend to make these units function, this is reasonable.  After four years, we continue to do the same thing and there are no complaints.  We spend our money is an organized manner and are never concerned that the account is getting empty.  

If participating families and we value the work we are doing, we should not apologize for recovering our full costs in a manner that respects the time investment of the volunteer leaders. There is nothing about Scouting that requires its volunteer leaders to operate units out of their own wallets or in a financially strained manner.  That's right -- I'm talking to the many of you who have stacks of popcorn boxes, faded Christmas wreaths and rotten candy in your basements.

Let's leave behind the horrible cycle of fundraising, continuous small fee collections and unit leaders effectively paying for many things without full reimbursement.  Because council and national fees will continue to rise, there is even more of an incentive to operate this way.  My four-year experience is that our families willingly pay, because they fully understand our costs.  Don't just sit there and be flustered -- make the change.

 

[fred8033]

Question ... if $400 is cost, why collect $200 ?   Or is the $400 with weekend campouts ?

 

[seattlecyclone]

Our pack does a month-long fundraiser every fall and that covers most of the costs. Families pay national dues and buy uniforms/handbooks from their own pocket. Everything beyond that (campouts, awards, pack meeting activities) is covered from the fundraiser. Administration of the fundraiser is largely delegated to a couple of parents who are not uniformed leaders in the pack.

Money has to be collected one way or another. I don't think there's one right way to do it. Find a balance that works for you and your unit. I'm sorry your experience with fundraising has been so negative, but I assure you this experience is not universal.

[T2Eagle]

25 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Question ... if $400 is cost, why collect $200 ?   Or is the $400 with weekend campouts ?

 

$200 at the start of each semester --- two payments, $400 total.

[jcousino]

Not undertaking Council level fundraisers most make your unit not very popular with the DE. what do you do with friends of scouting?

 

[fred8033]

15 hours ago, jcousino said:

Not undertaking Council level fundraisers most make your unit not very popular with the DE. what do you do with friends of scouting?

Councils are already seeing that.  Thus councils starting all-in funding themselves too.  Individuals pay much larger fees and are not expected to do FOS.

[InquisitiveScouter]

16 hours ago, jcousino said:

Not undertaking Council level fundraisers most make your unit not very popular with the DE. what do you do with friends of scouting?

 

These fees are in lieu of a FOS.  It is why councils started charging them in the first place.

[Eagle94-A1]

@Cburkhardt, I do not know where you live and what socio-economic class your Scouts are in, but mine are in an extremely low economic class. If we were to charge full upfront costs and conduct no fundraising, we would not have a troop. 2/3 of the troop are on some type of financial aid for national and council fees as it is. EDITED I am hearing from the packs that the lack of prorating fees is hurting recruiting. It is too expensive to join. At least with the prorated fees, they could see if the child liked the program ( Scouting is not for everyone), and units had time to help out Scouts

Yes, Scouting may be cheaper than some activities, and that is why Scouting is some families only activity: they cannot afford other activities. And around here, there are some activities that are cheaper than Scouting.

16 hours ago, jcousino said:

Not undertaking Council level fundraisers most make your unit not very popular with the DE. what do you do with friends of scouting?

 

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Councils are already seeing that.  Thus councils starting all-in funding themselves too.  Individuals pay much larger fees and are not expected to do FOS.

Depends upon the council. Mine is expecting folks to also contribute to FOS. Problem is you got families that can barely afford Scouting as it is, they don't have any extra money to give. And some families cannot even afford the national and council fees. And to be honest, no volunteer in my area sees any value for what they are paying. Some are praying for the mergers to start so that we may get better service from professionals.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Eagle94-A1

[dk516]

On 10/11/2023 at 9:24 AM, Cburkhardt said:

Everyone participating on this site knows we provide a huge financial bargain for our member families.  This becomes very apparent when comparing Scouting fees to other activities for youth.   

When we started our all-girl troop in DC in 2019, we decided to calculate the all-in cost of our year long-program (with the exception of campouts and summer camp).  This included purchase of things to keep our equipment inventory up-to-date, program materials and special activities and our annual dues to council/national.  This includes everything from award patches to refreshments at the court of honor.   We calculated the annual out-of-pocket cost at $400 for each girl.

@Cburkhardtwhat do you actually pay with the $400 that you calculate? We finally got to stop comparing ourselves to band, sports and everything else and always advertising what a bargain Scouting is because this is only partially true and highly depends on how you look at.

Between National, Council and Troop dues, our Scouts spend $230 for Youth and $90 for adults respectively. Monthly campouts with our Troop probably average about $35 a month * 10 months which is another $350. So, that's $570 a year for the "right to participate" and some monthly outings and couple patches throughout the year. This is twice of what our High School charges for their varsity sports team to participate the season (I purposely do not account for gear since I do not do that for Scouts either in this scenario). 

Now that's just the "common" stuff the unit does. Add $550 for our Council Summer Camp (In-council discount, short travel distance, etc.) which brings us to $1'120 for an average 1st or 2nd year Scout for a year of Scouting. 

Now let's look at the "must do for the full Scouting experience stuff" for our older Scouts: $1'800 for 12 days at Philmont; $2'500-3'000 to travel to Sea Base or Northern Tier or $3'500 for the Council contingent to go the Jambo. Not even looking at the cost to go to World Jambo. $3'000 is more than what I personally account for a cool family holiday and is way on par with what a sports season cost.

Then we need adults on top of all of this which is time spent volunteering, time needed to take off jobs (holidays or unpaid) and cost spent because even though adult attendance is mandatory for YPT and minimum crew requirements, they still pay most if not all of the cost incurred.

Looking at my own family and many families in our units that are very active and keep the Troop rolling, there are many where Scouting becomes a $10'000 annual cost factor for a family with older Scouts. 

So the often sung statement that Scouting is a bargain, or as our Council used to advertise it "the cost of one cup of coffee from a major coffee chain a month" is really only partially true. And yes, everything else is also getting more expensive but I know many that are starting the weigh the cost / benefits and the scales are not tipping in favor of the program.

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, dk516 said:

@Cburkhardtwhat do you actually pay with the $400 that you calculate? We finally got to stop comparing ourselves to band, sports and everything else and always advertising what a bargain Scouting is because this is only partially true and highly depends on how you look at.

Between National, Council and Troop dues, our Scouts spend $230 for Youth and $90 for adults respectively. Monthly campouts with our Troop probably average about $35 a month * 10 months which is another $350. So, that's $570 a year for the "right to participate" and some monthly outings and couple patches throughout the year. This is twice of what our High School charges for their varsity sports team to participate the season (I purposely do not account for gear since I do not do that for Scouts either in this scenario). 

Now that's just the "common" stuff the unit does. Add $550 for our Council Summer Camp (In-council discount, short travel distance, etc.) which brings us to $1'120 for an average 1st or 2nd year Scout for a year of Scouting. 

Now let's look at the "must do for the full Scouting experience stuff" for our older Scouts: $1'800 for 12 days at Philmont; $2'500-3'000 to travel to Sea Base or Northern Tier or $3'500 for the Council contingent to go the Jambo. Not even looking at the cost to go to World Jambo. $3'000 is more than what I personally account for a cool family holiday and is way on par with what a sports season cost.

Then we need adults on top of all of this which is time spent volunteering, time needed to take off jobs (holidays or unpaid) and cost spent because even though adult attendance is mandatory for YPT and minimum crew requirements, they still pay most if not all of the cost incurred.

Looking at my own family and many families in our units that are very active and keep the Troop rolling, there are many where Scouting becomes a $10'000 annual cost factor for a family with older Scouts. 

So the often sung statement that Scouting is a bargain, or as our Council used to advertise it "the cost of one cup of coffee from a major coffee chain a month" is really only partially true. And yes, everything else is also getting more expensive but I know many that are starting the weigh the cost / benefits and the scales are not tipping in favor of the program.

Ten years ago, we were at least $7000 for a few years.  Four scouts active and two adults.  A few years the kids attended summer camps from multiple troops.  Sometimes high adventures.  Other costs.  ... On top of the explicit cost, add wear and tear on cars and adults and time away from jobs.

[Eagle_Chris]

Scouting provides many great adventures but I agree to understand total costs you need to factor in all of the costs :

- BSA National fees

- Council fees

- Troop fees including events 

- Uniforms and patches

- Summer camp

- High Adventure - including separate transportation fees

- Equipment (backpacks, boots, clothes, sleeping bags)

 

I can see the concern on rising costs.  A Scout that actively participates can be funding thousands of dollars a year.  Multiple family members can double or triple this expense.

Yes, to just attend meetings would be minimal expense - but I don’t think that would keep the Scout interested very long when their friends are going to summer camp, Philmont, etc.

With the exception of travel sports, most school activities and sport teams are funded through tax payer dollars.

Has the BSA focused on obtaining more Corp sponsors and private donors?  This could offset expenses for those in need.

 

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 hours ago, Eagle_Chris said:

Has the BSA focused on obtaining more Corp sponsors and private donors?  This could offset expenses for those in need.

They would never do that... the more corporate sponsors they get, the more they will raise their own salaries...

 

[qwazse]

On 10/11/2023 at 11:24 AM, Cburkhardt said:

… As a result, we do not conduct product sales or similar fund raisers – the conduct of which deforms program and chews through leader time and wallets.  Once a year we hold a coffee gathering of our families as our only fundraiser to help pay the dues for under-resourced girls. …

You say this as if that’s a good thing. Some of us find it patently immoral to shirk the teaching of marketing, salesmanship and service industry to our youth.

Our yearly dues are under $200 to cover registration and awards, then from our meatball hoagie sales at community festivals and a car wash offered by a local lawn, garden, and feed store, we cover most weekend camping costs, the occasional party, and capital expenses.

Aside from increased community exposure (in both directions, citizens meet scouts and scouts meet fellow citizens) this inspires some older scouts to find jobs or start their own businesses. Among my world jamboree troop were two scouts who raised their big-ticket funds by worked at their CO’s soft drink stand during weekend festivals.

Edited October 14, 2023 by qwazse

[BetterWithCheddar]

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

Some of us find it patently immoral to shirk the teaching of marketing, salesmanship and service industry to our youth.

I find marking up popcorn by 300% to be immoral. I'd prefer to teach my son salesmanship with a box of $2 candy bars.

[DuctTape]

The rear-view mirror has been for a while now the only place where National and Council fees provided any real value to a member or unit. IFF BSA is going to continue into the future, tbe entire business plan needs to be reformulated. IMO, HQ and Councils need to almost eliminated.

The entire structure needs to be reversed (as does most units). 

Patrol/Den is at the Top. All other bureaucratic groups sole purpose is to support the patrol/den.

All revisions of handbooks and mB pamphlets can be handled by volunteers. Many of us have been willing to do thus for decades, but have been shut out.

HQ needs to be the Volunteer Board and have near-zero staff. There should be no national fee. HQ should exist to leverage decreased costs to members and units for insurance, etc... These costs get paid directly to insurer. (Snark comment... If HQ needs funding, they can sell popcorn).

Councils should exist solely as a "gathering" of units. No need for Professionals. 

 

End of rambling thoughts.