When Leaders butt heads, CC vs SM, and when to walk away as a Leader?

[Cncguy76]

I write this tonight with a heavy hand and heart, as I seek advice from the Troop CC's and SM's....

I am the Scoutmaster/Dad of a local Troop for about 5 years now and over 10 years with the Unit. During this time, another father has been a year ahead with his son and advancements. We teamed up about 5 years ago as I was the SM and he took on the role as CC, and the floodgates opened with trips, events and overall success within the Troop. We recruited great adults, MBC's and the success of the Troop showed with JTE Scores, retention and over 80% Eagle Scouts with countless miles hiked and community service hours for our community.

It was a challenge at the Eagle Scout Court of Honor as they asked me with tears, "Am I done now? Did i Eagle "out"? How can we return and help the Troop?"- We have 5 JASM's now as Eagles... Not a bad problem to have. Life was great!

The CC's son Eagled about 2 years ago with 5 Palms, and that when my headache started to a full blown migraine.

The CC has bullied over all aspects of the Troop at this point to include ALL committee roles, trips, Scout Leadership positions, and now has become the Chartered Rep, Unit Commissioner, Committee Chair, Advancement Chair, Fundraising Chair, District Member ,MBC,etc. Committee Meetings turn into arguments over every subject with "NO!! I'm the COR! (CC, etc)" In recent months, he has resigned then to reappear at a SPL meetings unannounced, dictating what Scouts lack.....

Fast forward to this week as we plan the next Eagle ceremony and FOS Fundraiser.....

An Eagle Scout requested that his biological and step mother be a part of his Eagle Court of Honor Ceremony, with the CC screaming that we do not change any ceremony details, the Eagle pin does not say "Step Mom" and if the change in ceremony happens, he will shut the ceremony down and the Scout will not be an Eagle. Unfortunately, this was my son who made the request......Now, as the SM, who wrote the ceremony, I feel that the request was justified by the Scout and will be honored. 

The meeting continues to the successful fundraiser details.... When I find out that we made so much, that cash will be stored on a shelf in the Scout Room, not deposited into the Troop account or gear requested for 5 years will be replaced. (When I started as the SM, we had $10 in the account and demanded transparency) and annual registration dues for Scouts will increase from $150 to $300, as we know, for the increase in National Charter dues.......I'm blown away with this as we charge enough dues per trip to cover expenses...

 

So, with as many details as my migraines can allow, if you were in my shoes as the SM/CC/COR, what would you do? I feel to ask of his resignation, as my son is in his last year of Scouting and I do not want to find a new unit..

Concerned SM/Parent

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

@Cncguy76 welcome to scouter.com

[fred8033]

General ... COR selects leaders and that's mostly it.  KEY POINT --> COR does NOT inject into daily execution.  COR does not guide or approve anything daily.   Problem is that many people sign up to be COR to get power over SM/CC.   The real defense is that SM/CC are volunteers.  The willingness to move on is real power.  Be prepared to walk away.   That takes away the COR overreaching their role. ...  Same with CC overstepping his role.  CC runs committee that administers the troop.  The CC does NOT execute the program or work with scouts.  ...  Don't passively support the CC by letting him do that.  

The Eagle Court of Honor.  ... COR/CC should NOT be injecting anything into a Eagle Court of Honor.  IMHO, threatening to throw a tantrum is hot air.   Go ahead and do it.  He'll look like a foot and destroy the troop.  ...  Plus !!!
* There is no such thing as an official Eagle ceremony. 
* The ceremony does not make the Eagle.  It's just recognition after-the-fact.  
* If COR threatens to stop the ECOH, then the COR is saying I'm firing the SM and CC.  So, stopping an ECOH would be firing the unit leaders.  
* IMHO, the most important is that many troops view the ECOH as NOT a troop event and not a patrol event.  It's a scout event.  The scout and his family chooses the venue, script, attendees, related awards, etc.  

Fundraising ... I did not understand the fundraising statement.  BUT, we generally don't keep cash in the scout closet.  It should be deposited and credited to the right accounts.  Transparency.   CC works with treasurer to administer it.  COR is not involved.  

...

Too many roles ... A good CC should be CC (maybe COR) and then do nothing else.  Maybe fill in as necessary.  Then, smooze and con (aka recruit) the next "volunteer" to help.  That's how a good troop keeps running.  That's a key job of the CC.

Summary ... Sounds like you need to have a real non-stressful heart to heart with the CC.  If you can't solve it, decide whether to talk to the head pastor or other.  Otherwise, be prepared to walk away.  Let him burn down his own house.  You don't need to burn with it. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by fred8033

[HashTagScouts]

@fred8033said a lot that crossed my mind, and said it well.

CC, let alone the COR, should only be a support system to those who should be delivering program to the Scouts (SM/ASMs). Having been CC for two units, my role was really only to get the parents to assist for the roles that either the Scouts don't have anything to do with or are minimal ambassadors for (recruiting, completing paperwork, making sure fundraisers are planned and executed well). 

If your son has had his Eagle BoR, then congratulations, he is an Eagle Scout. The CoH does not an Eagle make, it is just a recognition ceremony and is far more for the family to celebrate alongside their Scout. The unit should be proud of "one of their own" and be there to support the family and the Scout as they plan THEIR Eagle CoH. If this individual wants to continue to be a PIA, I would suggest your family discuss with your son what he wants as essential in a ceremony and carry on and plan that as best as you can- once planned, hand out printed invitations (you can spend a lot and have them done professionally, but I've received some fairly nice ones that were printed at home on postcard type cardstock). Those who wish to attend from the troop are welcome to do so. I've attended a CoH just a few years ago that was for a Scout who had aged out and his SM used the SM conference to get very personal on criticism (frankly, from what the young man had to say about it, it was flat out BS and bullying), so that young man did not want the SM to attend. A 23 year old Eagle formerly from the troop came and delivered the Eagle charge and MC'd, and the ceremony went well. 

Be prepared to walk away, and without a grand exit plan, is my caution for you. This person is wielding way too much influence over everything, and clearly is on a power-trip and ready to bring a sledge hammer to any dissent. You've done your best to be there for the kids all this time, which is the only thing of importance, but you cannot solve this person- they are blind to their disfunction. Highly doubt that others around don't see your positive actions and this persons negative ones, so don't allow ego to keep you locked up with them. Walking away is tough. I've recently been there.   

[InquisitiveScouter]

Although I would love to hear some other perspectives on this, if yours is an accurate depiction of the reality, my advice is to exit the situation gracefully.

If this is your Scout's Eagle Ceremony, and you are not tied to the venue, consider having it in your home.  You will need one other registered leader, of course.

And then, only invite the people your Scout wants to be there.  Friends and family, etc.  If someone uninvited shows, they are trespassing 😜 (even though all Scout events should be open)

There is absolutely no requirement for an Eagle COH.  Once your Scout's credentials come back from National (post-EBoR), then that Scout IS an Eagle Scout (and only then... EBoR completion is only a step along the way...National must approve all, and issue credentials, or the rank is not to be awarded.)

BTW, are you certain the Eagle Application was signed by EBOR Chair, and submitted to Council Registrar after the EBoR???

If yes, then you may call the registrar and ask explicitly to have only the Scout or a family member pick up those credentials when they come back.  You do not want this person getting their mitts on them.  The credentials can be replaced with Registrar help, but it takes a while...

Once you have Eagle credentials in hand, you can purchase all the Eagle bling you want.

And if Council Scout Shop will only sell you one kit, then go to scoutstuff.org,

https://www.scoutshop.org/eagle-scout-mom-pin-antique-finish-14121.html  (there is a sterling silver version also...)

or EBay and get what you want.  Eagle Mom Pins, for example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/194591393053

And your Scout can name as many mentors as desired.  Get all the Mentor Pins you need at Scout Shop or EBay:

https://www.scoutshop.org/eagle-mentor-14123.html

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175888591335

These are not restricted items, so you should be able to order all you want.

When you exit, if asked, simply cite "unreconciled differences."  Then move to our area and come join our unit 😛  Or enjoy your break from Scouting!

[SSScout]

I am, unfortunately, reminded of a Carol Burnett show  skit, where an ex Nazi becomes the Activities Director on a cruise ship.   "YOU VILL HAF FUN ! ""

I have been, am sad to say , witness to this sort of thing and agree with all that has been said, especially the part about the separation of the  "earning/approval" of the rank and the "celebration/awarding"  of the medal.

What hasn't been mentioned is the final say over the Troop/Unit is the CO Institution Head.   She/he names the COR, and could as easily dethrone him.

I find it hard to believe, in so active and well supported Troop as you describe, that one person would be allowed, much less need to ASSUME (?) so many roles/responsibilities.  Has no one else spoken out to this usurpation of power?   

Then too, as in Band of Brothers, Mr. COR could be re-assigned to other duties by the District Commissioner. He/she assigns Comisshers to Units.  Mr. COR can be assigned (!!) to another Unit and the results would be easy to observe, and (perhaps) his Commishun revoked..  It has been done. 

As to the closer to home problems,  it will remain for the rest of the ADULT LEADERS to Band together and remind this , dare I say it, fascist, that Scouting is for Scouts to lead, not the adults.

Tie him to a chair and force him to watch Veggie Tales for a while...   "It's for the kids".... 

[Eagle94-A1]

A few comments.

 

1. be prepared to leave as the COR can do anything they want. grant you they are doing too much and really should be a support role.

2.. While I am a fan of troop ceremonies, my troop growing up had a standardized ECOH script, they need to be flexible. MY father was out of the picture when I got Eagle, but my Godfather was a big support, and he got the dad pin.

3. If you go the ECOH on your own, be prepared to pay the financial cost, as well as the emotional cost. It will cause issues with the COR.

4. A cheap way to go for initiations is  to create a photo invite and print locally, or using a certain national online vendor.  One Eagle I know figured out that as a member of the online provider, it was cheaper for him to mail individual photos  via them. But a lot of $0.27 charges on the credit card.

5. I do not know who gets the eagle credentials. If he gets them and tries to hold them up, you can get replacement credentials though the Scout Shop. You will need some info, i.e. full name on application, date of EBOR, etc to have it verifies and sent to you. I had to get a replacement packet.

6. While I do not like what this troop did, It may help in this situation.  Troop used another person's credentials to buy an eagle kit in order to have all their eagles presented at their annual eagle COH. This troop does one per year, it is a MASSIVE deal, and while confirmation is in SCOUTBOOK, it does take time to get the credentials.

More later.

[RememberSchiff]

20 hours ago, Cncguy76 said:

I am the Scoutmaster/Dad of a local Troop for about 5 years now and over 10 years with the Unit. During this time, another father (Mr. X) has been a year ahead with his son and advancements. We teamed up about 5 years ago as I was the SM and he took on the role as CC, and the floodgates opened with trips, events and overall success within the Troop. We recruited great adults, MBC's and the success of the Troop showed...

...

The CC has bullied over all aspects of the Troop at this point to include ALL committee roles, trips, Scout Leadership positions, and now has become the Chartered Rep, Unit Commissioner, Committee Chair, Advancement Chair, Fundraising Chair, District Member ,MBC,etc. Committee Meetings turn into arguments over every subject with "NO!! I'm the COR! (CC, etc)" In recent months, he has resigned then to reappear at a SPL meetings unannounced, dictating what Scouts lack.....

Some questions:

1. Scouting does not tolerate bullying. Is he bullying scouts?

2. What is Mr. X current leadership position?  I am blown away he is/was CC, COR, and UC.

3. Are any of the other great adults Troop Committee members? What are their thoughts?

4. Have you or Committee members spoken with IH ?

Sadly adult conflict is too often the most transparent yet slowest, least remedied problem in Scouting.

My $0.02,

[Cncguy76]

After a day to lower my blood pressure,  I reflect on where this will go for me.

As I'm the SM,  I have all the necessary Eagle Award items, pins and paperwork for the COH. I plan on proceeding with the ceremony as planned with the parents and other Scout leaders.

The other leaders are just as frustrated with the CC/COR and his bullying over the years. I hope to have a off line sit down conversation with him before the next Committee meeting.  Hopefully,  our tenure together may work out the differences. Unfortunately,  others are not as open with this situation at meetings. 

Maybe he will step down and enjoy a few open hours of his schedule now. If not, I have a great ASM that will step up to SM as I take a step back.

[curious_scouter]

In our unit we treat Eagle COH as if a wedding reception.  The Eagle and their family do the planning.  From guest list to the ceremony.  The family is welcome to use our meeting place (the church) for the ceremony but very often secure their own venue.  Sometimes another church, rec hall or in the past they have even done it at the site of the Eagle Project itself. 

We have a COH outline, but the Scout and family can "make it their own".  They key is making it special for the Scout(s) and their family/families.