Legal settlements and abuse

[fred8033]

4 hours ago, ThenNow said:

All of the societal norms and reporting jumbo mumbo gumbo aside, no other US YSO, save the the Catholic and LDS Churches, elevated men to the position of adulation and deference BSA did. Period.

That's really not true.  Teachers.  Football coaches and coaches from pretty much every sport.  Police.  etc, etc, etc.  The list goes on and on.  

[ThenNow]

1 minute ago, fred8033 said:

That's really not true.  Teachers.  Football coaches and coaches from pretty much every sport.  Police.  etc, etc, etc.  The list goes on and on.  

May I see the written materials that support your assertion, comparable to the published BSA manuals and papers distributed in the 60’s and 70’s which I referenced? I’ve posted excerpts on other threads, but a can drag them out again. I’m not speaking theoretically, in broad brush societal “bad ol’ days” terms, as I see you doing. I’m talking quite specifically and factually. When you can do this, I’ll take your comments as evidence vs personal opinion and generalizations to fit a narrative.

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

I do though wonder how you did not see that similar respect and as you call it, bowing almost to the SM etc. in other youth leaders.  We were expected to do what those adults said, often with little expectation other than jump and follow. 

“Bowing almost to the Scoutmaster” is not what I said or implied. It is passive aggressively very patronizing and demeaning. 

[ThenNow]

12 hours ago, ThenNow said:

I’ve posted excerpts on other threads, but a can drag them out again.

Here is a taste. Please forgive any wonky formatting on the cut and paste.

BSA has issued various publications available to scouts, parents, and the general public. The Boy Scout Handbook typically contains the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. It also contains a description of troop leaders. The Seventh Edition of the Handbook was copyrighted in 1965 and reprinted in 1967. It states: 

"First, there’s your Scoutmaster. What a wonderful man he is! He spends hours figuring out how to give you fun and adventure in your troop. He takes special training to learn exciting new things for you to do. He is present at every troop meeting and goes hiking and camping with the troop. He is the friend to whom you can always turn to for advice. He coaches the patrol leaders. Why does he do all this? Because he believes in Scouting, because he likes boys and wants to help them become real men." 

The Seventh Edition also directs scouts to obey their Scoutmasters. “A Scout is Obedient. He obeys his parents, Scoutmaster, patrol leader, and all other duly constituted authorities.” 

The Eighth Edition of the Handbook was copyrighted in 1972 and reprinted in 1973. The Eighth Edition states: 

“Over there watching things is your Scoutmaster. He’s a great guy. He gives hours of his  time to you and the troop. And do you know why? Mostly because he knows Scouting is important to his city and nation. Besides, he is interested in boys.” 

The Ninth Edition of the Handbook, copyrighted and printed in 1979, again states that the Scoutmaster “is the friend to whom you can always turn to for advice” and directs scouts to follow the rules of their troop. The Ninth Edition is dedicated to “the American Scoutmaster who makes scouting possible,” and directs scouts to be “loyal” and “true” to their Scout leaders. 

In 1970, BSA published the “Parent’s Book.” It states that “Scouts benefit immensely from companionship with [their Scoutmaster],” who is a “man of good character.”

The Parent’s Book also states that the Scoutmaster is “the kind of guy [scouts] would like to be,” and that the Scoutmaster has “the unique ability to get inside a boy and gain his confidence.” It states that the Scoutmaster has a “profound influence” on boys.

Finally, the Parents Book states that the Scoutmaster is a “mature adult of sound character,” and lists the “desirable qualities” for which a Scoutmaster is selected. 

[johnsch322]

56 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Here is a taste. Please forgive any wonky formatting on the cut and paste.

BSA has issued various publications available to scouts, parents, and the general public. The Boy Scout Handbook typically contains the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. It also contains a description of troop leaders. The Seventh Edition of the Handbook was copyrighted in 1965 and reprinted in 1967. It states: 

"First, there’s your Scoutmaster. What a wonderful man he is! He spends hours figuring out how to give you fun and adventure in your troop. He takes special training to learn exciting new things for you to do. He is present at every troop meeting and goes hiking and camping with the troop. He is the friend to whom you can always turn to for advice. He coaches the patrol leaders. Why does he do all this? Because he believes in Scouting, because he likes boys and wants to help them become real men." 

The Seventh Edition also directs scouts to obey their Scoutmasters. “A Scout is Obedient. He obeys his parents, Scoutmaster, patrol leader, and all other duly constituted authorities.” 

The Eighth Edition of the Handbook was copyrighted in 1972 and reprinted in 1973. The Eighth Edition states: 

“Over there watching things is your Scoutmaster. He’s a great guy. He gives hours of his  time to you and the troop. And do you know why? Mostly because he knows Scouting is important to his city and nation. Besides, he is interested in boys.” 

The Ninth Edition of the Handbook, copyrighted and printed in 1979, again states that the Scoutmaster “is the friend to whom you can always turn to for advice” and directs scouts to follow the rules of their troop. The Ninth Edition is dedicated to “the American Scoutmaster who makes scouting possible,” and directs scouts to be “loyal” and “true” to their Scout leaders. 

In 1970, BSA published the “Parent’s Book.” It states that “Scouts benefit immensely from companionship with [their Scoutmaster],” who is a “man of good character.”

The Parent’s Book also states that the Scoutmaster is “the kind of guy [scouts] would like to be,” and that the Scoutmaster has “the unique ability to get inside a boy and gain his confidence.” It states that the Scoutmaster has a “profound influence” on boys.

Finally, the Parents Book states that the Scoutmaster is a “mature adult of sound character,” and lists the “desirable qualities” for which a Scoutmaster is selected. 

After reading all of this I can only imagine how scoutmasters etc. could feel as if they were supreme beings. It is so cult like. I bet that old time scouters in their 70's and 80's also feel the same way, that only they know what was right or wrong after being indoctrinated with words such these.

[fred8033]

12 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Here is a taste. Please forgive any wonky formatting on the cut and paste.

Sounds just like every Disney video from the 1950s talking about adults in town.  The trusty grocery.  The helpful police officer.  The guiding teacher.  And the ones we'd watch in elementary school with Mr. Science.  Everyone taught kids to revere adults.  The difference is BSA published a book with the words written down. 

Now, people hold it up as "evidence".  IMHO, that's sad. 

It's just how people talked back then when marketing.  

Edited September 6, 2023 by fred8033

[johnsch322]

54 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Sounds just like every Disney video from the 1950s talking about adults in town.  The trusty grocery.  The helpful police officer.  The guiding teacher.  And the ones we'd watch in elementary school with Mr. Science.  Everyone taught kids to revere adults.  The difference is BSA published a book with the words written down. 

Now, people hold it up as "evidence".  IMHO, that's sad. 

It's just how people talked back then when marketing.  

I was born in 54 and never heard those words in a Disney movie. Please enlighten me as to which one it was. I was never taught about a "trusty grocery" and was once at the age of 5 praised by a CHP officer for not getting into his car when he told me, my sister and a friend he would drive us home when we were walking down old 395 by March AFB. I am pretty sure Mr. Science only taught us science and said believe in the science.

Stranger Danger campaigns and warning started in the early 1960's when people started to get TV's and the news started reporting about horrific things that were happening to children even CSA. 

Maybe you have been drinking the BSA Kool Aid for a little too long.

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by johnsch322

[skeptic]

You can interpret anything as your own mind chooses.  Fred is right in that was common language in the forties and fifties still, and certainly in material written earlier than that.  Some people may also be drinking bitterroot tea perhaps.  Me thinks your dark glasses are perhaps a little too tinted towards the dark side.  

[johnsch322]

5 minutes ago, skeptic said:

You can interpret anything as your own mind chooses.  Fred is right in that was common language in the forties and fifties still, and certainly in material written earlier than that.  Some people may also be drinking bitterroot tea perhaps.  Me thinks your dark glasses are perhaps a little too tinted towards the dark side.  

You are correct, the BSA used language in their own publications that put scout leaders as someone who could be trusted in everything, and little boy scouts should follow everything that that scout leader should say or do. So, when a scout leader was finished with his dirty little deed, he would say to the little boy scout tell no one not even your parents. The little boy scout would do exactly what he read in his handbook which once again was trust your scout leader because "he likes boys and wants them to become real men" Exactly an environment that a pedophile would thrive in.  And the BSA knew they had a problem with CSA, hid it from the general public and still published handbooks for scouters and their parents with the writing that @ThenNowhas quoted.

As a survivor I was taken to the dark side by a scout leader. Unfortunately, with the trauma that was caused I have had to revisit the dark side more often than I would like. 

[johnsch322]

Yes @skeptic once again you are correct, and I guess from you feeling sad that you finally realize that the BSA created the perfect environment for pedophiles with their indoctrination to young boys to trust and obey what their Boy Scout Leaders said and did. And maybe now you can see that they covered up the amount of damage that the pedophiles did to young boys by not releasing the files that they had to the public. Because if it was known to the general public then maybe one parent would have not let their son join an organization that ultimately scarred them for life. 

Edited September 6, 2023 by johnsch322

[vol_scouter]

On 9/5/2023 at 11:52 PM, johnsch322 said:

Yes @skeptic once again you are correct, and I guess from you feeling sad that you finally realize that the BSA created the perfect environment for pedophiles with their indoctrination to young boys to trust and obey what their Boy Scout Leaders said and did. And maybe now you can see that they covered up the amount of damage that the pedophiles did to young boys by not releasing the files that they had to the public. Because if it was known to the general public then maybe one parent would have not let their son join an organization that ultimately scarred them for life. 

Just releasing the IVF to the public was not a reasonable course of action.  The IVF contains not only names of suspected CSAs but also others who had done things to have their membership permanently revoked such as alcohol abuse, anger issues, mishandling Troop funds, and many others.  The files could be screened but a simple release would not be right to others who had not been suspected of CSA.

So for the people in the IVF suspected of CSA, most were not convicted of the crime.  Professionals usually acting upon information from volunteers suspected them of CSA but it was not proven in a court of law.  There were some who were guilty of CSA and those should have been published in local newspapers during the trial.  So those were known.  The remainder were suspected of a crime, but it has not been proven in a court of law so to release the names would be defamatory for those people wrongly accused.  

Though there might have been a way to legally release the suspected CSAs in the IVF. just releasing it would have been a different kind of nightmare for many.  The means assure that someone did not switch councils was a much more difficult task in pre-internet days.  However, there might have been a method that would have worked better.

The largely ephebophiles (adults having sex with post pubescent children) and fewer pedophiles (adults having sex with pre-pubescent children) tend to be manipulative and clever making it difficult to believe that they are capable of these heinous acts.  Many years ago, a friend had a three year old in a day care at his church.  His wife took the child to the local pediatrician for an anal lesion.  The local pediatrician did not culture the lesion but treated it with an IM injection of penicillin.  My friend and I were in medical school and he thought the pediatrician's actions were odd.  There arose another peri-anal lesion and this time my friend brought the child to the teaching children's hospital clinic where the lesion was cultured and the child treated for N. Gonorrhea.  As it turns out the church minister was accused of sexually abusing the day care children.  The local pediatrician was aware, but the minister was a good man.  The community rallied around the minister who eventually avoided a conviction.  I worry that his alleged proclivities were not sated and he may have repeated his activities.  Just to say, bringing hideous ephebophiles and pedophiles to justice is often daunting.  

Let us all work together to develop and implement much better policies to protect children.  Perhaps as the BSA has requested, a national database done by the CDC to have a file for all Youth Serving Organizations (YSO) to access so that CSAs cannot move from one YSO to another.  

 

[ThenNow]

17 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Let us all work together to develop and implement much better policies to protect children.  Perhaps as the BSA has requested, a national database done by the CDC to have a file for all Youth Serving Organizations (YSO) to access so that CSAs cannot move from one YSO to another.  

Paragraph 13  of the Youth Protection Non-Monetary Commitments in the Plan, which the Trustee now oversees:

Volunteer Screening Database 

a)     The BSA will work with the YPC to assess how the names of adult perpetrators of child sexual abuse in Scouting and other information can be made public or used in connection with a database accessible to other youth serving organizations. Specifically, the BSA agrees to work with the YPC on a protocol that makes confirmed past child abusers in Scouting, and future confirmed child abusers in Scouting, publicly known.

b)    The protocol will take into account factors including: (i) the desire to make public adult perpetrators of child sexual abuse in Scouting; (ii) adequate protections for survivor identities; (iii) consideration regarding the protection of third parties, including survivor family members and volunteers; (iv) a notification process regarding any publication; (v) issues related to privacy and liability related to publication; and (vi) the potential appointment or retention of an appropriate neutral party to supervise the evaluation and review of the VSD. 

c)     The BSA will take a leadership role and re-engage with other YSOs and agencies including but not limited to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children to explore the feasibility of and advocate for a shared national database of adults who have been excluded from working with youths for youth protection related offenses. 

d)    The Trust Agreement shall be modified to provide the Settlement Trustee with the authority to request an order of the Bankruptcy Court relating to the publication of materials included in the VSD, no earlier than one year after the Effective Date. The Plan shall be amended to specifically provide that the Bankruptcy Court retain jurisdiction to adjudicate such request. All parties in interest, including the Reorganized Debtors, shall have the right to object to and contest any request made by the Settlement Trustee.   

Footnote to Paragraph 15(a):

The BSA and YPC shall consider the best way to utilize the redacted Proofs of Claim filed in the BSA chapter 11 cases, as well as information from the VSD.  

[MikeS72]

6 hours ago, ThenNow said:

a)     The BSA will work with the YPC to assess how the names of adult perpetrators of child sexual abuse in Scouting and other information can be made public or used in connection with a database accessible to other youth serving organizations. Specifically, the BSA agrees to work with the YPC on a protocol that makes confirmed past child abusers in Scouting, and future confirmed child abusers in Scouting, publicly known.

The big difference between this and what some on here have advocated is the word confirmed.

As @vol_scouterstated above and many have stated previously, the IVF was not created and maintained solely for CSA cases, and even for the files that were sex related not all could be confirmed or successfully prosecuted.  I would be surprised if anyone here would object to names of convicted persons being released (also part of @vol_scouter's comments was the fact that if someone were arrested and convicted their names would have already been know and published after conviction).

I cannot remember who it was, but one of our regulars related the case of a female scouter who was banned after an accusation that was disproven by the police investigation.  Despite the legal exoneration she remained in the IVF.  I would never want to see that persons name made public.

In 6 decades of scouting I can only speak to knowing of 2 perpetrators.  One I learned of reading the newspaper, probably in the late 70's, who was sentenced to 15 years.  The other was late 60's, and I never learned what happened in that instance.  The one who was convicted was made public during his trial and after his conviction.  The other as I stated, I have no knowledge of what happened to him and whether anything he did was ever known to the public, although I know with 100% certainty that he was guilty.

I can speak to knowing how easy it can be for a child to accuse someone of what initially sounds like a classic case, but upon review was just a vindictive student who thought that was the best way to get back at a teacher he was mad at.  This child went home and to his father that one of the PE teachers made him go into a closet and take his clothes off.  What he did not include in his accusation was that the closet was actually a 10 x 10 room with a door that stored PE uniforms that could be borrowed if needed.  The teacher unlocked the door, sent the student in, closed the door (teacher remained outside of the room) and had the student put on a uniform.  Had this happened in scouting the adult leader would likely have ended up in the IVF just for being accused.  Thankfully in this case the school principal knew that I was supervising the area before class that day and asked what I could tell her about the reported incident.  The teacher was cleared of any wrongdoing and the student disciplined.  This is not to say that we should not believe the child when they say something happened, just that it needs to be thoroughly investigated before taking action (other than removing the individual until the investigation is complete.)

Edited September 8, 2023 by MikeS72

[johnsch322]

If anyone here has not read the Wikipedia page on Boy Scout sexual abuse cases than here is the link

Boy Scouts of America sex abuse cases - Wikipedia

Please read the whole page.

[Eagle94-A1]

28 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

I cannot remember who it was, but one of our regulars related the case of a female scouter who was banned after an accusation that was disproven by the police investigation.  Despite the legal exoneration she remained in the IVF.  I would never want to see that persons name made public.

That would be me. Highly dedicated Scouter: Award of Merit,  Silver Beaver, and was slated to be the first female Vigil of my home lodge before the accusation happened. Banned for life because of the accusation.  And the "scout" making the accusation had a known history of lying to stay out of trouble. A year before that accusation, he lied about 3 other adults giving him permission to leave an event with a bunch of friends.  The other Scouts in his group came forward and told the truth which prevented the adults from getting in trouble.

Yes, we need to believe youth as their safety is paramount. I know 4 people who were abused, 2 were brothers and i personally knew their perp. Thankfully he ended up behind bars. But there does not seem to be any repercussions on false claims.

 

18 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

If anyone here has not read the Wikipedia page on Boy Scout sexual abuse cases than here is the link

Boy Scouts of America sex abuse cases - Wikipedia

Please read the whole page.

I would look at the sources and evaluate. Wikipedia is not a completely reliable source. Heck they even have an article on its reliability and another on hoaxes  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hoaxes

Also anyone can be signed up as a wikipedia editor. I remember signing up to share some new, hot off the presses info on my specialty on the Wikipedia page. Had everything to prove ti was legit by academic sources: proper citations and documentation easily reproducible. long story short after 2 days of back and forth with another editor removing my info and notes,. I said the heck with it.