Girl's Troop YPT Question on a family campout

[DannyG]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Again, I would follow current BSA policies, and cancel family camping. And looking at the Age Appropriate Guidelines Chart, https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf?_gl=1*1cs29xm*_ga*OTQ3ODk0MTA5LjE2OTAzMDE3Nzk.*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTY5MzMxNTg2My40LjEuMTY5MzMxNTg4NC4zOS4wLjA.&_ga=2.6422011.839612725.1693315864-947894109.1690301779 , Family Camping has not been listed as an approved Scouts BSA activity since at least August 2021.

As for making it "an unofficial gathering of friends" You are putting the Scouters and CO in legal and financial danger if anything happens. BSA has thrown thousands of COs under the bus with the bankruptcy, what makes you think they would not throw you under the bus?

It is not worth it.

So you are saying in response to @dangale, original post:

Quote

No one locally seems to know the answer to this question, so I thought I'd get input from folks here. We have a family campout coming up for members and their families from both our Boy's Troop and our Girl's Troop... 

Stop right there. Cancel the family campout entirely???  In other words, by conducting this event they are violating more than YPT guidelines?

I understand your response. What I am saying is they need to conduct this campout outside of the scouting realm. Groups of friends and families can go camping together, especially at a public KOA campground. They need to be certain all attendees know this is not a scouting activity.

[HashTagScouts]

2 hours ago, DannyG said:

So you are saying in response to @dangale, original post:

Stop right there. Cancel the family campout entirely???  In other words, by conducting this event they are violating more than YPT guidelines?

I understand your response. What I am saying is they need to conduct this campout outside of the scouting realm. Groups of friends and families can go camping together, especially at a public KOA campground. They need to be certain all attendees know this is not a scouting activity.

The original post asked YP questions and mentions troops. If now we are just saying "it's just families getting together", then so be it. Absolutely nothing from that weekend then would apply to program- no rank requirements get signed off, nights do not count as Scout camping, etc. 

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, DannyG said:

So you are saying in response to @dangale, original post:

Stop right there. Cancel the family campout entirely???  In other words, by conducting this event they are violating more than YPT guidelines?

Correct, I hate to say it, and I find it a ridiculous rule, but family camping now violates YP rules, except at the Cub Scout Level.

 

2 hours ago, DannyG said:

I understand your response. What I am saying is they need to conduct this campout outside of the scouting realm. Groups of friends and families can go camping together, especially at a public KOA campground. They need to be certain all attendees know this is not a scouting activity.

Long story short, if you have a litigious family in your unit, and trust me you won't know until you are sued, and something happens, they will sue everyone. Even if it is not a BSA event, but you are using troop equipment and resources to promote the event or at the event, the lawyers will go after CO and BSA, in addition to you.

[skeptic]

52 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Correct, I hate to say it, and I find it a ridiculous rule, but family camping now violates YP rules, except at the Cub Scout Level.

 

Long story short, if you have a litigious family in your unit, and trust me you won't know until you are sued, and something happens, they will sue everyone. Even if it is not a BSA event, but you are using troop equipment and resources to promote the event or at the event, the lawyers will go after CO and BSA, in addition to you.

And that is our problem in our particular litigious society and messed up legal system.  Little logic in too many cases, only a view of dollar signs. Who cares if it is petty and selfish as long as someone can get money?  

[sierracharliescouter]

The huge problem with requiring all adult leaders on every campout to be registered with the unit is the issue of transparency of the program. It basically forces every parent of every scout to be registered if they want to be able to witness the program in action. From a legal perspective, I am more concerned about eliminating this element of transparency as I am of adhering to this strict new rule. Why would I, as a parent, trust adults that I may not know very well to be in charge of my kids when I can't witness first-hand how they handle campouts? There needs to be a reasonable carve-out of this new rule to allow for limited participation of YPT-trained by non-registered parents to see the program in action before committing to register.

[Eagle1993]

9 minutes ago, sierracharliescouter said:

The huge problem with requiring all adult leaders on every campout to be registered with the unit is the issue of transparency of the program. It basically forces every parent of every scout to be registered if they want to be able to witness the program in action. From a legal perspective, I am more concerned about eliminating this element of transparency as I am of adhering to this strict new rule. Why would I, as a parent, trust adults that I may not know very well to be in charge of my kids when I can't witness first-hand how they handle campouts? There needs to be a reasonable carve-out of this new rule to allow for limited participation of YPT-trained by non-registered parents to see the program in action before committing to register.

If it is overnight that won't be an option.  The option is to register as a leader or don't have your kid attend.  Very similar to GSUSA.

[satl8]

5 hours ago, DannyG said:

So you are saying in response to @dangale, original post:

Stop right there. Cancel the family campout entirely???  In other words, by conducting this event they are violating more than YPT guidelines?

I understand your response. What I am saying is they need to conduct this campout outside of the scouting realm. Groups of friends and families can go camping together, especially at a public KOA campground. They need to be certain all attendees know this is not a scouting activity.

It's probably worse than that- once you take YPT you are not supposed to be alone with any other scout even if they come to stay the night with your child and your spouse has to run out and pick something up from the store. I would guess that it wouldn't take much for a lawyer (I'm NAL) to draw some pretty strong parallels of this "groups of friends and families" campout that is pulled together by registered leaders and probably discussed at meetings or if nothing else you probably used the resources by being a Scout leader to get emails and phone numbers of these "friends" who also happen to be either leaders or involved with your Scout unit. Would a common person on a jury (or a judge) look at this situation and think that this is just a group of friends? Or is it a group of Scouts looking to subvert the rules? Too slippery of a slope for me...

[mrjohns2]

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Very similar to GSUSA.

That is a good point. You are supposed to be registered just if you want to stay at a meeting. 

[T2Eagle]

4 hours ago, skeptic said:

And that is our problem in our particular litigious society and messed up legal system.  Little logic in too many cases, only a view of dollar signs. Who cares if it is petty and selfish as long as someone can get money?  

The thing is, it sounds petty and selfish until it’s your family facing tens maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical and other costs, then it’s your family’s survival on the line.  And there is no other way in our society to ameliorate those costs, no one else is coming to your rescue, no one else is going to be in a position to actualy provide that level of help.

[scoutldr]

The BSA has long held a policy that a custodial parent is permitted to attend and "observe" ANY scouting activity in which their child participates.  If they suddenly told me that I could not do that, I and my child would terminate our membership.  It smacks of what school boards are trying to do, blocking parents from seeing what they are doing with our kids.  

[Jameson76]

So how does the BSA justify (support??) - market with a straight face the Family Camping sale at the High Adventure bases?  You could have families spending the night at BSA facilities with Scouts BSA aged youth and parents without YPT.  These Non-YPT folks could be around units.

Seems either ALL adults going on outings need to be YPT trained and registered EXCEPT when they are paying for lodging in "Family Camp".  Nice carve out

 

[dangale]

49 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

So how does the BSA justify (support??) - market with a straight face the Family Camping sale at the High Adventure bases?  You could have families spending the night at BSA facilities with Scouts BSA aged youth and parents without YPT.  These Non-YPT folks could be around units.

Seems either ALL adults going on outings need to be YPT trained and registered EXCEPT when they are paying for lodging in "Family Camp".  Nice carve out

 

They do a similar family camp multiple times a year at a nearby Council's camp property...I guess they don't consider it a Scout outing but rather just a family outing that happens to be held at BSA property (?). 

[Eagle94-A1]

I love the double standards that BSA has. The rules apply to thee, but not to me.

[mrjohns2]

13 hours ago, scoutldr said:

The BSA has long held a policy that a custodial parent is permitted to attend and "observe" ANY scouting activity in which their child participates. 

You can. That doesn’t say that there aren’t conditions. A parent must register if they wish to stay overnight. They are not barred from staying overnight. They can only come for the day if not registered. 

[DannyG]

14 hours ago, scoutldr said:

The BSA has long held a policy that a custodial parent is permitted to attend and "observe" ANY scouting activity in which their child participates.  If they suddenly told me that I could not do that, I and my child would terminate our membership.  It smacks of what school boards are trying to do, blocking parents from seeing what they are doing with our kids.  

BSA wants all of the adults registered and background checked before camping overnight with a scout troop. Unregistered parents are permitted to observe up to a point; they can attend day programs but must leave camp once scouts go to sleep.