NOAC and AIA

[Eagle94-A1]

Another nail in the coffin of the OA IMHO.

 

While cheerful service is the heart of the OA, AIA was the spirit that motivated and guided.

[sri_oa161]

When you remove the parts of an organization that appeal to most members, you will then lose members.  Potential members will see that what formed the foundation of the organization is gone and they do not want to be a part of it.  Current members will leave because they see what has been a large part of the organization and the threads that hold it together are gone.  There will be few members left to continue and the organization will cease to exist. 

What has been gained from this fiasco except the loss of an organization that has been beneficial to the BSA and the Community.  No one wins unless you count those that really wanted to see the organization cease to exist.  

A result of a few controlling the many while the many have no say in who the few are.

The sad world we live in.

[MikeS72]

9 hours ago, sri_oa161 said:

When you remove the parts of an organization that appeal to most members, you will then lose members.

I was inducted into the Order of the Arrow back in the 1960's.  I was a part of our chapter ceremonies team for years.  I was a chapter chief and an advisor.  I have been a Vigil Honor member for more than 50 years.  Over the years I have seen a change in how the YOUTH perceive the use of Native American culture in the OA.  I hear all the time about chapters and lodges who have difficulty fielding ceremonies teams, and when listening to the YOUTH who decline when asked to participate one of the most common things I hear is that they are amazed that we still dress up and play Indian.  Many of them want no part of it.  The parts of the organization that appeal to YOUTH members are those that involve service and fellowship, not playing dress up.

9 hours ago, sri_oa161 said:

Potential members will see that what formed the foundation of the organization is gone and they do not want to be a part of it. 

It has been a while in many places since those outside OA have been exposed to much of the old way of doing things.  It is hard for me to think that a potential member would decline induction based on removing something they have never experienced.  If we look at the founding of the OA, it was not primarily based on Native American culture, but rather on a culture of cheerful service as scouts.  The original induction ceremonies were not based on Native American lore, that came later.

10 hours ago, sri_oa161 said:

Current members will leave because they see what has been a large part of the organization and the threads that hold it together are gone.  There will be few members left to continue and the organization will cease to exist. 

I have only spoken to ONE YOUTH member who has expressed any concern about the potential elimination of NA representation.  I really do not see much in my area with adults being upset about it, in fact, one of the oldest members of the lodge and I were involved in a conversation with several youth members about this recently and his response to weaning us off of NA images was "it's about time".  Adults who are upset about it see it as taking away an idealized part of their youth.  I look back and at times cannot believe we ever thought what we did was truly honoring Native Americans.

 

10 hours ago, sri_oa161 said:

No one wins unless you count those that really wanted to see the organization cease to exist.  

While I am sure there are those out there who would like to see the Order of the Arrow go away, the vast majority of those whom I know simply want us to emphasize the literal meaning of WWW.  To many the aspects of brotherhood and the service we provide far outweigh anything else.

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

I was inducted into the Order of the Arrow back in the 1960's.  I was a part of our chapter ceremonies team for years.  I was a chapter chief and an advisor.  I have been a Vigil Honor member for more than 50 years.  Over the years I have seen a change in how the YOUTH perceive the use of Native American culture in the OA.  I hear all the time about chapters and lodges who have difficulty fielding ceremonies teams, and when listening to the YOUTH who decline when asked to participate one of the most common things I hear is that they are amazed that we still dress up and play Indian.  Many of them want no part of it.  The parts of the organization that appeal to YOUTH members are those that involve service and fellowship, not playing dress up.

I too was involved in ceremonies, AIA, kept the Vigil, etc. We did not have problems with youth and regalia as we had extremely active dancers. Initially it was the memorization of the ceremony scripts that youth complained about. Then when the National OA Committee comprised of 60 ADULTS (major emphasis) and 3 youth decided to mandate the AOL and Crossover Skits Ceremonies, that raised the ire of the youth. When the National OA Vice Chief at the time visited my lodge, he was confronted with why the decision was made by the youth of the lodge. He was asked so many times he stated the decision was made and he will not be answering any questions on the matter. When those mandates happened, youth in my area lost interest, and it has spiraled.

 

2 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

I have only spoken to ONE YOUTH member who has expressed any concern about the potential elimination of NA representation.  I really do not see much in my area with adults being upset about it, in fact, one of the oldest members of the lodge and I were involved in a conversation with several youth members about this recently and his response to weaning us off of NA images was "it's about time".  Adults who are upset about it see it as taking away an idealized part of their youth.  I look back and at times cannot believe we ever thought what we did was truly honoring Native Americans.

Must be area specific, because as I stated the youth WANTED (emphasis) the Native American aspect of the ceremonies. And there was protests over the decision in my lodge on the matter. Again the National Vice Chief was confronted over this.

As for honoring Native American, I admit it was extremely dependent on the lodge. Some of the lodges I have been in had good relations with local nations, some had great relations with local nations, and some had poor to no relations. One of the guys I did ceremonies with uncle was a tribal (sic) councilman. One of the AIA advisors I worked with was on the local Nation's powwow historical and powwow committees.

No one I have encountered in person has said it is about time to end it.

 

2 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

While I am sure there are those out there who would like to see the Order of the Arrow go away, the vast majority of those whom I know simply want us to emphasize the literal meaning of WWW.  To many the aspects of brotherhood and the service we provide far outweigh anything else.

Sadly I have encountered folks who want the OA to go away. And while brotherhood and cheerful service are the lifeblood of the OA, AIA was the spirit that motivated, inspired, and guided folks. Sadly  I have seen the  decline of the OA corresponding to the deemphasis of the AIA aspects.

[satl8]

The word I got was that the University of Colorado requested that element be removed and not National OA removing it. It would probably be better if the slide referenced that or if there was a statement that went out regarding this.  I would hope that negotiations are continuing but my money is that it will be out for this NOAC.

[skeptic]

While the initial connections to Native Americans was in theory the Delaware, and all the early language is in that language, it was also common for local tribes to be connected in some way in the mid century.  In the fifties and sixties, the NA image and regalia was part of the mystique that drew many youths' interest.  Also, as I have noted before, at one time the entry was restricted in number, not like today when pretty much any first class member can be elected, or really just named due to no numerical barriers.  I would be interested to know what the current Delaware tribe may say in regard to the traditions and continued use of parts of their language.  But, in our area, we are on good terms with the local tribes and even have had smoke ceremonies at tap outs.  Also, we have scouts that attend local pow wows, a few that even learn dances  under the tutelage of the tribe.  I am afraid much of the issue has to do with the PC approach to so much in current society, as well as the loss of that mystique and it being seen to be an honor, and not just another check mark.  JMHO of course.

[Double Eagle]

Is there a publication or source for the slide showing AIA competitions not being held?  I have a few interested drummers and dancers.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

20 hours ago, Double Eagle said:

Is there a publication or source for the slide showing AIA competitions not being held?  I have a few interested drummers and dancers.

 

Source is a FB post by a previous NOAC judge/trainer.

 

[BetterWithCheddar]

I know I've posted something similar in the past, but I'll reiterate:

I've never been fully comfortable with using Native American imagery as a youth in the OA, despite being an active lodge member. The big draw for me was always recognition and the opportunity to fraternize with scouts my age (never AIA). I'm hardly the PC-type, but I've avoided the use of certain logos out of respect for individuals who may not be accurately represented by the OA-sanctioned symbolism. Personally, it doesn't bother me if you're a fan of AIA and are participating in them respectfully and with good intentions; however, I suspect there is a silent majority on the issue who are largely indifferent, but (if pressed) would prefer to move on to something less likely to offend or draw criticism.

[skeptic]

My maternal grandparents lived in Oklahoma in the twenties and thirties, and my GF's first wife, who passed in 1907 from medical issues after an operation, was a photographer in Walters, Oklahoma.  She had begun doing local work on photos of Native Americans in the area at the time of her death.  Looking back, I realize I may have missed an opportunity to shed a bit of light on the era by discussing with my GF that period, though we kids were really not aware of Mae for the most part, as it was so long past, and he chose to not talk about it for many years it seems.  Now we have a good deal of material from them at the time, but we have been unable to track down much of the photography work, which was apparently in the popular postcard format of the time.  I seem to remember though that Grandpa was always very supportive of the NA issus, and he lived to be 94, so saw much of the efforts in the twentieth century.