The future of the BSA

[yknot]

1 hour ago, scoutldr said:

We are paying for Granddaughter's soccer.  $265 per month.  Scouting is still a bargain.  Just matter of priorities.

Scouting is only a bargain when other people volunteer. 

[Ojoman]

5 hours ago, yknot said:

Costs and relative value for any youth activity are pretty dependent on where you are, what kind of council and unit you are in, and how involved your scout and family want to be in it. Y

I agree that Scouting is a good value but unlike a lot of other youth activities, Scouting depends upon a certain amount of parent participation to be successful. In sports you often have 1 or 2 coaches  and mom n dad mostly sit on the sidelines or dropoff and pickup their kid or send him with a friends family. Then there are the new restrictions and registration/YPT requirements for parents to participate just as parents. It is no longer 'keep it simple and make it fun'. Also, councils need to do more to support the units with local, in person trainings including POW WOW and U of Sctg. We desperately need more adults that are dedicated and well equipped. Kids and parents whose needs are met stay in. There is no reason to have 25 or 30 percent turnover. We shouldn't fear the competition, we should be the competition. 

 

[NDW5332]

17 hours ago, Ojoman said:

I agree that Scouting is a good value but unlike a lot of other youth activities, Scouting depends upon a certain amount of parent participation to be successful. In sports you often have 1 or 2 coaches  and mom n dad mostly sit on the sidelines or dropoff and pickup their kid or send him with a friends family. Then there are the new restrictions and registration/YPT requirements for parents to participate just as parents. It is no longer 'keep it simple and make it fun'. Also, councils need to do more to support the units with local, in person trainings including POW WOW and U of Sctg. We desperately need more adults that are dedicated and well equipped. Kids and parents whose needs are met stay in. There is no reason to have 25 or 30 percent turnover. We shouldn't fear the competition, we should be the competition. 

 

The problem with a lot of the other activities in our area, particularly athletics and marching band, is that it's an all or nothing proposition. The coaches and band directors demand 100% of their time outside of school. Kids feel the need to join travel ball, rec leagues, and local athletic associations, because they won't make the high school team without it.  If they don't make that, then they aren't going to get seen by pro-scouts, or college scouts.  A lot of these kids have delusions of grandeur and legitimately think NFL scouts are at their pop-warner games.  When I was a mere Cub Den Leader, one of my Tigers who made it through the end of Wolf gave up Scouting for football.  He's playing on the high school team, but he's also on his 4th concussion and also had a broken ankle.

[Ojoman]

53 minutes ago, NDW5332 said:

The problem with a lot of the other activities in our area, particularly athletics and marching band, is that it's an all or nothing proposition. 

That is a sign of a bad coach, frustrated Lombardi wannabees... then there are parents that push their kids too. I have so many stories of the powerful/positive impact of Scouting. There are many kids out there that are not so into sports or band. We need to reach out to them and connect with a great local program. Today we are literally in a fight for our kids future and the values, character and citizenship that they need. Sadly, we have been losing ground for decades and that needs to end. 

 

[Tron]

41 minutes ago, NDW5332 said:

The problem with a lot of the other activities in our area, particularly athletics and marching band, is that it's an all or nothing proposition. The coaches and band directors demand 100% of their time outside of school. Kids feel the need to join travel ball, rec leagues, and local athletic associations, because they won't make the high school team without it.  If they don't make that, then they aren't going to get seen by pro-scouts, or college scouts.  A lot of these kids have delusions of grandeur and legitimately think NFL scouts are at their pop-warner games.  When I was a mere Cub Den Leader, one of my Tigers who made it through the end of Wolf gave up Scouting for football.  He's playing on the high school team, but he's also on his 4th concussion and also had a broken ankle.

Most people have no clue what it takes to get onto a college team. The first thing people need are genetics; when both parents walk up with all of their 5'9" or less height and unimpressive body mass index I find it hard to believe that they think their kids are going to develop much differently and have any chance of playing sports at even a varsity high school level. 

I shall diverge from scouting a little to illustrate a point that I run into with parents in my area all of the time.

So many parents just have no clue how sports work because so few people have ever participated in sports, any sport; even if they supposedly participated in one.

Here is a great example! I've got a parent at a unit who has their kids in scouts and XC. The parent supposedly had a XC scholarship to a BIG 10 college. Parent routinely complains about the cost of scouting. Parent has never complained about the price of running shoes (I'm a runner and I go through about 4 pair a year at $100 to $150 a pop; my son had a gait analysis done before we purchased his new XC shoes and it was $165, and that's just shoes for an 8 week season). Same parent who is supposedly a runner thinks their one kid is going to run 4min miles (4min flat) and thinks that 5min miles are slow. I'm no expert but I do watch the Olympics and the top middle distance runners in the world are struggling to run faster than 4:30 a mile. This is a supposed subject matter expert in the sport and the parent can't even reconcile reality of cost comparison of an 8 week program vs a 52 week program; and the parent can't even reconcile realistic sport expectations vs some fantasy. FYI the top 13 runners in the world comprise less than 0.0000002% of the 621mil runners in the world. Somehow this parent thinks their kid is going to end up better than 99.9% of the runners in the world. Don't even get me started on the baseball parents; I played at a high level and some of these parents pull their kids from scouts for 6 to 7 months of the year thinking their kid is going to play professionally some day and I don't know how the kids made the no cut teams.

[Ojoman]

On 9/22/2023 at 3:58 PM, NDW5332 said:

 I think there are often a lot of external factors that affect retention and attrition and there isn't one magic silver bullet that will solve what ails a pack or troop.

Retention, recruitment and overall growth and transition is not easy but can be accomplished. Your experience in recruiting and expanding the Webelos den shows that it can be done and actually should be happening all along the way. Packs that know their local resources and utilize them to enrich their programs and strive to make each level meet the needs and wants of both kids and parents retain and grow. The ultimate goal of a pack should be to retain and transition their cubs from grade k through 5 and on into Scouts BSA. BSA is and has been a FAMILY VALUES PROGRAM delivered while having fun and adventure. Thanks for your response. 

 

[Ojoman]

On 10/10/2023 at 3:56 PM, yknot said:

Scouting is only a bargain when other people volunteer. 

BSA should never be interpreted as BABY SITTERS OF AMERICA. Our pack inducted the parents with the Cubs and that sent the message that they were a part of the pack and important to the success of their child's experience. I actually knew a Cubmaster that would not accept a child unless the parents agreed to some degree of active involvement with the pack program. I don't advocate that but I do feel that without parent support and participation the program won't be as good as it could be and retention will suffer. 

[Eagle1993]

Any talk about the future of the BSA must begin with the financial situation it is in.  Unlike most bankruptcies, BSA doesn't leave it nearly debt free and in stable financial shape.  They entered bankruptcy with nearly $300M in cash and $180M endowment.  The endowment is gone and cash is at $25M.  They also added to their debt right before the bankruptcy ... and exited with all of that debt $222M of secured debt (I believe on their HA bases) and $364M of debt on Summit.

So, $25M of cash on hand and $586M of debt.  Let's say that loan is 4% and 30 years ... that is $34M a year in debt payments starting back up.  Or ... $34 per every scout per year.

At $80 per scout in National Fees, removing $34 for debt and likely $50 for insurance doesn't leaves any room to pay anyone at National.  

They need to refill their endowment and find a way to reduce that debt fast.  Growing membership will be important, but $80 per scout won't get them out of this hole fast enough.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Eagle1993

[Ojoman]

2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Any talk about the future of the BSA must begin with the financial situation it is in. 

Many local councils had to sell properties and dip deeply into endowments in order to kick in their share of the settlement. AS you pointed out, the settlement will have long lasting financial consequences for the BSA and structured fee increases was and is a part of that settlement. I believe that part of that projection was predicated on membership growth which seems ridiculous on the face of it since the BSA has not had traditional membership growth since the early/mid 1970's. I believe the loss of the LDS church was factored into things but the impact of covid and the bad press from all the ads that the law firms ran not to mention the NBC documentary special on abuse in the BSA are things that will make it very difficult to maintain, let alone grow the program. Additionally, local councils tacking on insurance and service fees will make growth even more unlikely. The issue extends from the top to the bottom and it ain't going away!

[Jameson76]

21 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

 and $364M of debt on Summit.

 

This should not be underscored.  BSA spent close to $1B on the Summit when there was no need and no real overall plan to fully utilize.  Well, there was / is a plan, just not a realistic plan.  Look over the original presentations, it is smoke, mirrors, and hope.  They could easily have setup a home for the Jamboree at a much smaller area and at a much lower costs.

Why they keep pouring cash into the vanity project that is the "Summit" baffles me.  Sell the place and walk away.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Jameson76

[yknot]

47 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

This should not be underscored.  BSA spent close to $1B on the Summit when there was no need and no real overall plan to fully utilize.  Well, there was / is a plan, just not a realistic plan.  Look over the original presentations, it is smoke, mirrors, and hope.  They could easily have setup a home for the Jamboree at a much smaller area and at a much lower costs.

Why they keep pouring cash into the vanity project that is the "Summit" baffles me.  Sell the place and walk away.

Personally I think their end game or at least back up plan is that Summit and Philmont are going to be the Disney Land and Disney World of scouting. Scouting will largely become a nostalgic activity at marquee regional destinations with some limited local units as satellites around whatever regional hubs are worth retaining. Easier to manage and monetize. BSA is not built around local scouting and really doesn't show any signs of changing that. 

[Ojoman]

3 hours ago, yknot said:

BSA is not built around local scouting and really doesn't show any signs of changing that. 

I have always viewed the BSA structure as an upside down pyramid with the broad base of units and youth members on top and narrow bands of volunteers, districts, councils areas, and finally national all in support. I don't always feel that way these days. It varies from council to council and even district to district. Properly run councils and districts are doing a credible job in difficult times while others frankly are failing. While I feel my present council is failing I know with the right leadership it can turn around. I hope that happens and soon. The program is too valuable to families and youths to continue to watch it falter.  

[Eagle94-A1]

Regarding why districts are failing, in some cases you got longtime volunteers who have been ignored and abused by pros, and they are fed up with it. They are told they will be treated differently by the new pros, but it is the same old, same old.

[Jameson76]

8 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Regarding why districts are failing, in some cases you got longtime volunteers who have been ignored and abused by pros, and they are fed up with it. They are told they will be treated differently by the new pros, but it is the same old, same old.

Also, there is the question, for districts where are the volunteers coming from?

In the good old days, you and son (now child) would be active in Cubs and then Scouts, as child aged out, you could become involved in the district, etc. etc.  With the larger number of units / adults at that time there was a supply of folks to choose and select from.  As has been noted, with the disregard by pros and no real cache to be a "district" or "council" volunteer, there is no pool available.  And, whether one agrees or disagrees with the policy and membership changes in BSA over the last 10 years, a number of seasoned and experienced volunteers have made their personal decisions and moved on.  

As for newer adults being brought in with Cubs and families, they are seeing BSA as an experience and doing their time with the kids, then on to the next thing.  Many are not even aware of district or council.  

Personally, I see even with the unit I am involved in, not many understand the governance and structure of the BSA.  District is a needed evil for Eagle project approval, and that's about it.  They do not bring value to the day-to-day unit operation.

[Jameson76]

13 hours ago, yknot said:

Personally I think their end game or at least back up plan is that Summit and Philmont are going to be the Disney Land and Disney World of scouting. Scouting will largely become a nostalgic activity at marquee regional destinations with some limited local units as satellites around whatever regional hubs are worth retaining. Easier to manage and monetize. BSA is not built around local scouting and really doesn't show any signs of changing that. 

I know locally that seems to be how they raise the money to keep the professionals being paid, you focus on the history and the nostalgic thoughts of the BSA.  No mention of current operations, more "Follow Me Boys" than actually what is happening.

Local council has 40%+ of the staff either directly or tangentially involved with fundraising.  The DE's, who are supposed to be building scouting locally, are primarily charged with leading FOS, popcorn sales, camp cards ..... oh and maybe if time building units in the area.