A first, heartbreaking statement, for me

[fred8033]

11 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

First, my scout can see that the portrayal of more conservative groups is not accurate. 

Glad to read this.  I'm often frustrated with portrayals of conservative groups as it's not an accurate image of what I've seen or what exists.  Sorry for saying this but those portrayals are coming from politically acceptable hate mongering and bigotry; politically acceptable hypocrisy.  

Glad your scout is having a good experience.  Such stories are exciting to hear and offer a glimpse of a constructive future. 

I really hope that someday the only acceptable group to hate are the Green Bay Packers.  

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

You're right, @RememberSchiff. Being politically unaligned is a key part of the scouting "container", and now that we're having this conversation I realize this is also practically important to say out loud repeatedly. That @Eagledadisn't aware of any obviously "blue" families joining could actually be a great sign in that sense - hopefully, we wouldn't be so clear on how parents in scouting families vote because they choose to de-emphasize that at scouting events. Precisely because we don't talk politics I don't actually know what the rest of our pack committee votes for, but demographically it's quite likely that we have a mix of political opinions.

I also think it's generally true that people want and expect a break from politics when they go scouting. I wish the parents in the shirts disparaging political candidates wore something else, but since it hasn't affected activities and political talk hasn't started I also can't imagine myself (or someone else from pack leadership) walking over to them to tell them to stop wearing the shirts because what are we, the clothing police? 

However, what counts as "political" may vary, and based on what I've seen I think the lagging public awareness of BSA membership policy changes in and of itself can amplify the big-deal-ness of previously excluded youth for the youth.

When my scout and I started our first year selling popcorn door to door, it was obvious that girls and boys scouting together is normal and unworthy of comment or attention because that's how it's been for mom and grandpa. Then, neighbor after neighbor after neighbor had a reaction to our genders, working through their own feelings, positive or negative, about girls and boys scouting together. None of them meant to make it a big deal, but the bigness of the deal just kept growing as more people had their personal reactions to BSA policy changes or thought we were selling cookies. One neighbor ran to fetch their French exchange student to see real American girl scouts, which we were unfortunately not, especially not me. My scout got more and more annoyed at being put in a box they weren't in, and suddenly girls in BSA and the existence of a second aligned scouting organization became something to explain and talk about as an issue instead of just getting on with the popcorn selling to fund canoe rentals and campground fees. Scouting is clearly super-duper gendered to the max in people's minds in the US, and that isn't going to unwind quickly. In my mind, and I assume that of Swedish people in general, scouting is ungendered. It's simply unrelated to gender. So there's absolutely nothing to say about that. You don't start conversations about random unrelated things.

Wearing my old scout shirt with the fleur-de-lis is like a magnet for opinions on girls in BSA. The two super angry rants were precipitated by it, and a scout at a council event saw the lily and made a beeline to talk to me as soon as he had a chance to understand why it was there. Scouts and scouters in our pack have asked about it, but in a friendly way of course. The only scouter (to my knowledge) who's gotten it straight away was a former scout who went to a World Jamboree who had the inverse experience of showing up to realize they were in a sea of together-scouters as a little island of gender-segregated scouts. So, my personal choice here is to never wear my old shirt and effectively hide my own scouting experience or accept that I will have to deal with the ongoing attention and what some might consider politics. I would love to just get on with the scouting as we did when I was a scout myself, but there is a collective emotional reaction and processing of BSA's policy changes that's rolling around both inside and outside BSA and while some scouts can duck it, a lot of them can't, and so there's no choice but to just wade through it. And for the record, I find it wrong that GSUSA excludes boys and men, and quite aggressively so from what I hear. I do say that. It's true that it's not a generally heard opinion but especially now, I think it should be heard. It's of course easy for me to say but I think GSUSA and BSA should just stop faffing about and merge. BSA should definitely change its name, because people are using "it's in the name!!!" as an argument for why girls shouldn't be allowed. (Other than the Internet, both angry ranters threw that out there.) The hyperfocus on certain subgroups of scouts isn't coming from those scouts themselves, it's coming from... drum roll... adults, like @Eagledadwas saying. Getting really worked up about the focus just creates more focus. What we can realistically do here is to try to figure out what will help the entire society just digest this as the status quo in no need of particular attention. Having lived this state of being as a scout myself I know it's quite possible.

I tried to find more information on these patches for girls, people of color, and was it LGBTQIA people? I can't find anything. Anyone got a link?

[skeptic]

20 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I agree.

Many folks here struggle with a pragmatic discussion of facts because it points to an exclusive program, at least for the adults. And as we are watching, whats going on now isn't working. Maybe the culture can't handle a values development youth program anymore. and we just have to let go.

Barry

Barry, I would like to believe that a "values development youth program" is really what parents are seeking, and those same values are dormant in the larger society for whatever reason.  We can use all the "modern" words, but realtiy may be that we as a larger societal group have become jaded and feel like "what is the point?".  Yet it is obvious that is exactly what is needed, in my view.  And it still take hold and receives positive feedback in the too few instances that get into real media.  On the FB feed "Talk About Scouting" I seem to see a great many likes from those following, but seldom posting, for anything that highlights the local positive images.  For example, in the Aaron on Scouting page, he noted two Eagles who have founded a nuclear energy startup and asked them how Scouting helped and contributed.  One specifically highlighted the foundational tenets of the program.  And that shared quote has gotten huge positive response.  Similarly in our local area, most posts noting this type o thing bring positive feedback, and likes.

What is hard to deal with is that for some reason that apparent recognition of the "need" continues to go begging much of the time.  Scouting really cannot succeed unless those base tenets are part and parcel, and we find a way to embed them in the larger society.

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

15 minutes ago, skeptic said:

I would like to believe that a "values development youth program" is really what parents are seeking, and those same values are dormant in the larger society for whatever reason.  We can use all the "modern" words, but realtiy may be that we as a larger societal group have become jaded and feel like "what is the point?".  Yet it is obvious that is exactly what is needed, in my view. 

I agree completely. Many in US society (like many developed societies)- across political affiliations and social groups and all kinds of other ways of grouping people - are disconnected from the natural sense of being alive and awake to experience it that we all can tap into. In part that's because we don't spend enough time talking about that feeling of energy and flow to notice that we can be more or less connected with that, and what having it stream through you vs being completely disconnected from it and not even being sure that it exists, feels like. We are not actively exploring what it is to be a human being, how being a human works, and as a result we remain ignorant of how psychological cause and effect can move us either in a downward spiral or an upward spiral. But we all sense that there's up and down and we'd rather be going upwards, and that's where the need remains. We want to be mentally awake.

What is the point, indeed? That could be an expression of depression or a crisp philosophical question. When we are tapped into the energy of life, we don't have to have a conceptual answer in mind into order to be excited to explore.

[Eagledad]

38 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Barry, I would like to believe that a "values development youth program" is really what parents are seeking, and those same values are dormant in the larger society for whatever reason.  We can use all the "modern" words, but realtiy may be that we as a larger societal group have become jaded and feel like "what is the point?".  Yet it is obvious that is exactly what is needed, in my view. 

 

My hope is that character is such a natural part of the tradition of scouting that parents just assume it's part of scouting without rationalizing how its there. They unconsciously know scouting and character are synonymous. Because they don't think about the process of developing character is why the program struggles with adults stewarding it to the youths best advantage. That's OK, we on the forum will enlighten their path.

That is my hope anyway.

Barry

[MikeS72]

5 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I really hope that someday the only acceptable group to hate are the Green Bay Packers.  

Or the New York Yankees!!  😁

 

[Mrjeff]

Wow, this has gotten way of track...my initial post is simple, its a shame that a young man was forced to make a decision wherein he felt as though he could no longer be a part of an organization that goes against his morals, values and beliefes, an this is a common reaction to the current state of the BSA.  Agree or disagree, interpreting this how ever you like, it's a sad state of affairs.

[mrjohns2]

3 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

this is a common reaction to the current state of the BSA

Hummmm…. all scouting is local. Not all all around here. Our troops and cub units are growing.

[Eagledad]

13 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Wow, this has gotten way of track...my initial post is simple, its a shame that a young man was forced to make a decision wherein he felt as though he could no longer be a part of an organization that goes against his morals, values and beliefes, an this is a common reaction to the current state of the BSA.  Agree or disagree, interpreting this how ever you like, it's a sad state of affairs.

I don't think the thread got off track, it just went directions that we struggle with. You said it best, ""This is an axample of a young man who stands firm on his beliefs no matter how hard others try to change his mind.""

I think most of us struggle with the BSA either standing to firm or not standing firm enough in the morals, values and beliefs of this culture. Scouting provides the scouts with a set parameter's in the Oath and Law to reflect a process for acting selfless toward others. But, even with those given parameters, each scout comes from a personal experience that directs morality of their own beliefs.

It goes without saying that all of us aren't going to agree with everything in the decision making processes toward each other. If your post shows us anything, it's the strength and courage to make hard choices. A good lesson for all of us. 

Barry