A first, heartbreaking statement, for me

[Eagle94-A1]

Regarding Scout History.

Yes  the boys were acquiring his military Reconnaissance and Scouting book, especially after  the Boer War, and using his work for fun.  When he came back from the Boer War, he saw a need for boys to have some type of positive group, gangs were a big problem.

He approached the Boys' Brigade to see if they would use some of his ideas for a Scouting division, and they didn't use it. He then did Brownsea Island in 1907, and Bob's your uncle, Scouting is born. He published Scouting for Boys  initially in a series of journal articles, and it was a hit.

As for Girl Guides, Olave had nothing do to with it until after she married him in 1912. He started it, and had his sister Agnes as Chief Guide, and she edited BP's work to make it suitable for girls. She stepped down as president in 1917, in favor of HRH Princess Mary. And she continued as a VP until her death.

Olave didn't get involved in Scouting or Guiding until 1913. But she got heavily involved and in 1918 became Chief Guide.

[ToKindle96]

16 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

My ASM who was a SM of a Troop for many years had several of his former scouts mail him their Eagle Scout medals when BSA fought against including gay scouts.  He said it was hard on him but he understood and respected their stance.  

I'm here at summer camp with a Life rank gay/transgender scout and am happy I don't have to kick them out due to someone else's beliefs.  BSA has many faults, but allowing LGBTQ and girls as members are not one of them.  

Many faults but...

It is hard to believe that more than doubling the viable target market yet experiencing a decline in membership of more than half could be viewed as a net positive from a survival standpoint. Granted, there are multiple confounding factors, but If I'm evaluating a balanced scorecard of those decisions, the lead indicator (membership) doesn't a bright scorecard make.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

Not sure I follow here, @ToKindle96 - would you be fine with kicking Eagle1993's gay trans scout out if membership numbers went up as a result?

[ToKindle96]

Of course not!!! Evaluating decisions and their impact on overall org health and its survival is fair game though.

[Eagledad]

20 minutes ago, ToKindle96 said:

Of course not!!! Evaluating decisions and their impact on overall org health and its survival is fair game though.

I agree.

Many folks here struggle with a pragmatic discussion of facts because it points to an exclusive program, at least for the adults. And as we are watching, whats going on now isn't working. Maybe the culture can't handle a values development youth program anymore. and we just have to let go.

Barry

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

47 minutes ago, ToKindle96 said:

Of course not!!! Evaluating decisions and their impact on overall org health and its survival is fair game though.

Glad to hear!

I agree that evaluating decisions in view of a long-term view is important, of course it is. But when we slip from talking about our values to talking about membership strategy without clearly switching frames, it can easily give the unintentional impression that our true priority is membership numbers, á lá "what you measure is what you get".

Curious minds will wonder what happened to membership numbers when membership policy is changed. But if the basis for the membership policy change was values, then there's a natural restriction on how one might take action on the numbers, which I don't often see mentioned. One hopes that's because it's taken for granted, but it's clearer if we explicitly say it.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

30 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Maybe the culture can't handle a values development youth program anymore. and we just have to let go.

We're obviously in very different places with this.

I'm very confident scouting and its values are evergreen, simply because being a tween and teenager is hard and scouting is an accepting, loving environment outside both the family and schools where youth can test their wings and explore who they are in a constructive and facilitated way. Being out in nature often gives you spiritual experiences and being little model societies in the patrol and troop also shows you why virtue matters as a practical matter, not just as a philosophical one.

Why would US culture in particular be unable to handle a values-based program? What are you seeing that makes you so pessimistic about scouting?

[Matt940]

This decision was not taken lightly. The BSA took a long, deep dive into the American Zeitgeist and came up Woke. It's not surprising, that's where the corporations are along with the families with the disposable income AND high community involvement.

And, sure, membership will decline at first. Many folks don't like the changes and are on the way out. It will take some time before Scouting 2.0 makes its way into the public consciousness. As somebody mentioned earlier, some families are reluctant to join because Scouting has a reputation for being "red."

But it won't last. There seems to be a yearning among parents. especially the "blue" ones,  for values-based outdoor youth development. IF they can work out the YPT stuff, I think this thing will take off again. The Movement will look different, more urban and coastal, but will ultimately thrive and once again occupy the place of esteem and importance it once held in society

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

But "blue" families must extend their genuine welcome to "red" families as this happens, too. All differences between people are, in the ultimate view, no more real than the reflection of the moon in water is real. It is all an illusion.

[Eagle1993]

2 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

But "blue" families must extend their genuine welcome to "red" families as this happens, too. All differences between people are, in the ultimate view, no more real than the reflection of the moon in water is real. It is all an illusion.

Not able to read this entire thread, but thought this was an interesting comment.  I do think there are difference in beliefs and values between various groups.  We shouldn't dismiss those.  That said, when in person (which is much easier to have these discussions) a very conservative friend told me that in many ways, our end goals are similar it's just the path to get there is different which I agree and therefore agree with the intent above.

As I drove up my gay/trans scout to camp, they were concerned a bit about acceptance.  They live in a community and go to a school and church that is very accepting and were concerned that scouts, scouters or staff wouldn't at summer camp.  I told him to be themself and let me know if they run into any issues. 

So far, every interaction has been positive.  Outside of some sideways looks during shotgun merit badge (when they knew more parts of the gun than anyone in the class) it has been great.  (While the fact they are gay never comes up, their pronouns and appearance is clearly different.). 

I see this as a win. First, my scout can see that the portrayal of more conservative groups is not accurate.  I'm sure many don't agree but are kind in their interactions.  Others, who may not know a trans youth, can see that they are not the characters portrayed by the media.  Sometimes they are just a kid, in a scout uniform, working on shotgun merit badge.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

So glad to hear this! 🥰

Hope your scout continues to get to just do their thing throughout their scouting career. And that those kinds of stories get told as they happen. 

Scouting is for everyone.

[Matt940]

12 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

But "blue" families must extend their genuine welcome to "red" families as this happens, too. All differences between people are, in the ultimate view, no more real than the reflection of the moon in water is real. It is all an illusion.

I was speaking of general trends, not specific individuals or families. No need to talk politics in Scouting, there's more than enough conversations to be had without resorting to small talk. In Scouting, no matter who you're with, there's plenty to talk about.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

I agree, but at least in our pack some parents' clothes are political identity statements so there's no not knowing. Luckily we haven't had politicization of actual activities, but some folks really, really identify with a political "tribe" and want everyone to know it. Most of those families are new to scouting so they may not have realized that we're not a political movement but a civic one.

[Eagledad]

I'm not convinced blue families are wanting the program to the degree claimed. In fact, I haven't really seen that many families that are obviously blue. The ones I know of wanting to join aren't concerned about the wokeness changes of the program because they simply don't know. The general public hasn't been watching intently to the BSA drama's as most think. The BSA has been and still is the clean strait character building youth association it was 50 years ago. That is what most new families I've talked to think they are joining. I have seen a lot of Scouting families move on. They have watched the changes and don't see the program their families experienced.

Where the test is going to come is with religion in the program. God is values and values is morality and integrity. Saying one has values and morality without a consistent moral source means their values are individually made up and that forces a program of tolerating behaviors that many don't agree fit within healthy values. The basis for the program has always been agreeing to the values of the Oath and Law for just and moral decisions. When individuals start forcing their justice and morality, or lack of it, as superior for everyone, a program allowing youth to make independent decisions, and living the consequences,  fades from the trust of the adults. And as I stated before, scouting is all about the adults.

Everything presently is so political and all folks are tired of it. What we see on the news are the extremist, so that isn't really a measure of general thinking. Many folks feel the BSA had to change to keep up, but you don't hear anybody demanding the GSUSA include males, and they are doing fine and still selling cookies. The BSA image is traditional and firm with the general populous today. Of course those of us who have been here a while know that firm does not describe the BSA in the last 40 years. National seem to routinely shoot itself in the foot. And the membership trends show it. Their decisions seem to be driven by ignorance of the program.

I'm a pragmatic person who looks at data and facts to see trends, but the future of the BSA is in a fog to me right now. My personal opinion is National needs to tread water for awhile and see where the program falls. I have been preaching for a long long time that the main program killer of the program is the top heavy over burden Cub program. Now is the time to clean up that side of the program and build a solid older scout program by fixing the younger scout program. But, National doesn't seem to know it's own program. So....

Barry

 

Barry

[RememberSchiff]

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I agree, but at least in our pack some parents' clothes are political identity statements so there's no not knowing. Luckily we haven't had politicization of actual activities, but some folks really, really identify with a political "tribe" and want everyone to know it. Most of those families are new to scouting so they may not have realized that we're not a political movement but a civic one.

sarcasm/on

This is critical, so much so there is POLICY OF NO POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT (candidates, political groups, parades, rallies, protests,...) in large BOLD font ABOVE Declaration of Religious Principle on all Membership applications!

sarcasm/off

Ugh nope. Well National should do this, until then it is up to us to educate parents.

My $0.02,

Edited June 29, 2023 by RememberSchiff