A first, heartbreaking statement, for me

[mrjohns2]

12 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I don't recall race or sexual orientation ever being a part of any Scouting discussion 30 years ago. 

Unless you were a gay leader. Then you were considered not morally straight and kicked out. Or if you were a gay parent, then you were very much made to not feel welcomed to volunteer.

The good old days? I think not. 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

21 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

Scouts are just Scouts - even the civilian ones.

Sorry, what? Aren't all scouts civilian? Are there really military scouts? This seems highly irregular. Am I misunderstanding your phrasing here, perhaps? When you imply military scouts, what exactly do you mean?

If your scouting involvement is half blended with the US military, then that's a guarantee that it's not a representative experience of the scout movement. 

30 years ago, we also didn't talk about skin color and cultural background (because much fewer refugees had arrived, and the previous waves of immigrants had integrated well) or sexual orientation. We didn't talk about sexual orientation because we didn't care; it wasn't relevant to scouting or its values. LGBTQIA leaders and scouts weren't a problem. We never talked about religion, that's a private matter, but I'll disagree that three different kinds of Christians is significant religious variety. We did, however, focus a lot on the Scout Law, and part of ours is that a scout is a good friend to all. "Everyone is welcome" is a phrase I heard all the time. All. The. Time. Also, that scouting is a peace movement - not exactly aligned with the military!

My scouting experience is just as hyperlocal as yours, of course, but what you can't say is that I'm an outsider to scouting ("the Left") coming to wreck your organization. You don't have to agree with me, of course, but I am sticking by the scout law (you guys just bulleted the parts of being a good friend out separately) here precisely because there are probably others lurking whose sense of belonging in BSA is being shaken by what's being said here. I can't know for sure, but better safe than sorry; that everyone is welcome needs to be said out loud, now that it is so in policy. If someone thinks that everyone is not welcome, then that's something that should be discussed.

[Armymutt]

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

Unless you were a gay leader. Then you were considered not morally straight and kicked out. Or if you were a gay parent, then you were very much made to not feel welcomed to volunteer.

The good old days? I think not. 

The only way someone would know you were a gay leader is if you told them.  My favorite leaders were both life-long bachelors.  We don't know their sexual orientation.  We know that they were excellent leaders.  Like I said, it wasn't until someone decided that their personal identity was more important than Scouting that we had issues.

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Sorry, what? Aren't all scouts civilian? Are there really military scouts? This seems highly irregular. Am I misunderstanding your phrasing here, perhaps? When you imply military scouts, what exactly do you mean?

If your scouting involvement is half blended with the US military, then that's a guarantee that it's not a representative experience of the scout movement. 

30 years ago, we also didn't talk about skin color and cultural background (because much fewer refugees had arrived, and the previous waves of immigrants had integrated well) or sexual orientation. We didn't talk about sexual orientation because we didn't care; it wasn't relevant to scouting or its values. LGBTQIA leaders and scouts weren't a problem. We never talked about religion, that's a private matter, but I'll disagree that three different kinds of Christians is significant religious variety. We did, however, focus a lot on the Scout Law, and part of ours is that a scout is a good friend to all. "Everyone is welcome" is a phrase I heard all the time. All. The. Time. Also, that scouting is a peace movement - not exactly aligned with the military!

My scouting experience is just as hyperlocal as yours, of course, but what you can't say is that I'm an outsider to scouting ("the Left") coming to wreck your organization. You don't have to agree with me, of course, but I am sticking by the scout law (you guys just bulleted the parts of being a good friend out separately) here precisely because there are probably others lurking whose sense of belonging in BSA is being shaken by what's being said here. I can't know for sure, but better safe than sorry; that everyone is welcome needs to be said out loud, now that it is so in policy. If someone thinks that everyone is not welcome, then that's something that should be discussed.

A bit of tongue in cheek.  The kids of military members are not considered civilians in our world.  Civilian kids don't get uprooted by the government every few years and have to restart life in a new place.  
 

No one is saying that people aren't welcome.  It's more of a hyperfocus on special groups that think they deserve special recognition that is the problem.  When one makes special, and politically motivated, identification patches, it sends the signal that maybe all are not welcome or at least not considered equal.  

[Eagledad]

13 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

The only way someone would know you were a gay leader is if you told them.  My favorite leaders were both life-long bachelors.  We don't know their sexual orientation.  We know that they were excellent leaders.  Like I said, it wasn't until someone decided that their personal identity was more important than Scouting that we had issues.

Exactly! I worked with several respected gay and atheist volunteers. One atheist is an Eagle. The program works well imitating real life for the scouts until adults take advantage and push the program toward their self serving dreams. BSA Membership has taken a dip every time National has tried to appear more culturally inclusive. 

Honestly, I'm not sure anyone understands what just and fair mean anymore because inclusiveness has watered down the servant lifestyle that scouting promotes.

Barry

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

3 hours ago, Armymutt said:

No one is saying that people aren't welcome. 

I don't know about that. I've personally been at the receiving end of two very angry (one bordering on aggressive) tirades about how wrong it is that women are allowed to be BSA scouts. The one that made me step back in case of violence was while selling popcorn with my scout. Yep. To the scout's face.

This very forum has some (at least to me) eye-popping threads about openly LGBTQIA people and women. There are stickies on moderation policy saying more or less "ok it's over, LGBTQIA folks and women are in now so let's not rehash whether they should be because it's damaging to scouts". That wouldn't be needed if everyone in the larger BSA circles agreed that everyone is welcome. Being an atheist didn't exactly win me any popularity points here. Atheists are definitely not generally welcome.

You may not be saying that people aren't welcome, and perhaps that also isn't what MrJeff is saying or what his Eagle scout thought was against his morals. But some people most definitely have been and still are.

That's why it needs saying out loud very clearly, because there's a message to the contrary being put out there, and since people are free to say what they like they will continue to put that message out there. And this is also why I don't want to move on to YPT or the effectiveness of special interest groups, because this is a very important basic point to clarify. If we do not agree that everyone is welcome, then things like whether there should be affinity groups isn't going to get discussed with any degree of productivity anyway.

We have close family friends who are interested in BSA, but are reluctant to join because they're unsure of how they and their child will be treated because of both race and sexual orientation. Their judgement seems to be that they expect that the answer is 'poorly' and have not joined, and I can't say I think they're wrong without knowing the pack leadership of the pack in question. If even a single person like the two IRL ranters are on that committee or a leader, I would expect that they're right, and since I know they're out there...

I am glad to hear that we do genuinely agree that everyone is welcome now. This is such an important basic point! Thank you.

[mrjohns2]

3 hours ago, Armymutt said:

Like I said, it wasn't until someone decided that their personal identity was more important than Scouting that we had issues.

Tell that to the people who were kicked out for being “outed” outside of scouting. 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

So... Who welcomes everyone? ⚜️🌼💎

[Eagle1993]

My ASM who was a SM of a Troop for many years had several of his former scouts mail him their Eagle Scout medals when BSA fought against including gay scouts.  He said it was hard on him but he understood and respected their stance.  

I'm here at summer camp with a Life rank gay/transgender scout and am happy I don't have to kick them out due to someone else's beliefs.  BSA has many faults, but allowing LGBTQ and girls as members are not one of them.  

[denibug72]

7 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

My ASM who was a SM of a Troop for many years had several of his former scouts mail him their Eagle Scout medals when BSA fought against including gay scouts.  He said it was hard on him but he understood and respected their stance. 

The same happened in our troop the year my oldest son crossed over.  The scout earned his Eagle, and when the kit arrived, he handed it right back to the SM saying that he couldn't accept it in good conscience. His father was gay, and while the BSA banned his official participation, the troop allowed him to do things in an unofficial capacity.  For example, our Scoutmaster signed up for some MBs so the dad could use his knowledge to teach the kids movie-making and other MBs he was more than qualified to teach.

I spent some time at the District level, and encountered a shocking amount of sexism and racism among the older scouters.  It wasn't overt at all, and once young women were admitted, it amped up.

[Eagledad]

8 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

My ASM who was a SM of a Troop for many years had several of his former scouts mail him their Eagle Scout medals when BSA fought against including gay scouts.  He said it was hard on him but he understood and respected their stance.  

I'm here at summer camp with a Life rank gay/transgender scout and am happy I don't have to kick them out due to someone else's beliefs.  BSA has many faults, but allowing LGBTQ and girls as members are not one of them.  

Dear Friend

I have worked with a lot of adults who have worked many challenging scouts in many  situations. Rarely, in fact I can't recall any, adult being kicked out because their personal situation was contrary to the membership requirements. So, for those leaders, and most leaders through the times, give them praise.

Rarely, and I can't recall one, are discussions about kicking out scouts due to behavior. The discussions are about adults and what they role model to the youth. This should be one place where the youth are not used to prop up an opinion righteously over other opinions.

I have been with this forum for many years and have participated and observed hundreds of discussions involving the difficult situations of scouts and adults. While many of those discussions were fueled by emotion, many were also pragmatic. Sadly, some adults aren't willing to listen or even have the maturity to consider the opinions of others. They simply put them in disparaging categories and think themselves as superior in the discussion. These subjects are complicated and not one that can be put in one simple box. IF that were the case, then why is the BSA struggling more as the association becomes more, so called, inclusive?

I have worked with and trained many scouting volunteers over the years and there is rarely a subject discussed that I have had some experience. In this program, we adults of different ideas and personalities still have to sit together at the same fire. Do we not?

The last few years the BSA has learned how youth abuse is proof that the complexity of bringing in the right adults for working with youth is very difficult. But, It's not just about the safety of preventing harm to the scouts, it is also the safety of allowing a youth to grow from the decisions in their activities.

Giving youth the  room to make mistakes and developing valued behaviors to develop integrity is what scouting is all about. I assure you that finding adults who are willing to provide that kind of safe environment is challenging. Giving the scouts room to find themselves and make changes in their behavior to grow positive character requires the right adults. Many, if not most, scoutmasters will say that they spend at least 50 percent of their time working with the adults to create and hold a troop environment where scouts feel safe to grow so that they as adults will make moral and ethical decisions as adults.

Many of the discussions here ignore that part of the program and want changes that will take  out the part of the program that requires a safe environment for youth to make independent choices out of their program. So, many of us present the challenges that dilute the mission of making moral and ethical decision makers seriously because that is the mission. Unfortunately, many adults don't care to consider that perspective and raise their opinions as more valued.

Truth is that no association is truly inclusive because the theme of the association is the attraction. At this point, the question to me is how much of character development of making moral and ethical decision makers part of the program are we going to give up so that adults can associate themselves with the BSA. Are we willing to push the program to a just a family camping hobby association? Are those who want to be builders of youth with integrity going to even be allowed to be part of the program? This are the challenging questions I have watched discussed the last few years. 

Barry

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

24 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Truth is that no association is truly inclusive because the theme of the association is the attraction.

Those who are attracted to the scouting movement, do you welcome all of them?

[SSScout]

When  B-P started "Scouting", it was (correct me here if I am wrong in my interpretation and memory) because the young soldiers he met in his army were rather weak and ignorant in things that related to their survival in the ranks. His first attempts were aimed at educating the young men in skills and ideas.  The young men in the general society  found these ideas attractive, and so began "Boy Scouting".  B-P's good wife took the ideas and found traction in the female part of society and so Girl Guides began.   Were there societal limitations, yes. Certain "types" of young men and women were not invited or made welcome. But the ideals were never defined so exclusionary. 

When this new movement was brought to America,  the new Scout Promise and Law certainly had some hints (" ... morally straight...") but nothing absolutely defined or declared.  Perhaps that was intentional, noting some room for future possibilities. Maybe....

I say the true morality (if there is such a thing)  has always included treating PEOPLE with respect and equality.  It is our personal definition of what PEOPLE are that is in contention.  The survival of OUR PEOPLE.  Who is that? Tribe? Society? Nation? Sect? Race? Culture?  How is that to be  accomplished?  By sufficient procreation?   War?  Land zoning regulation?  Yellow stars sewn on clothing? Billy clubs?  Food rationing?  

Scouting became an outlet for many folks' way of defining "their" people. Exclusion rather than inclusion.  Did the Scout Promise or Law help that?  Depends on what they decided to pay attention to , and what parts to ignore. 

We are now trying to understand and correct those limitations.   Let's see if we can expand who "our people" are. 

 

[Eagledad]

46 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Those who are attracted to the scouting movement, do you welcome all of them?

All adults who unselfishly desire to further the development and growth of youth making ethical and moral decisions based from the Scout Law and Oath are welcome.

Barry

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

@Eagledad So glad to hear!

I was actually primarily talking about youth, though, but I assume the adult part wasn't key?

Not that cold-shouldering adults is ok, it's just that adults have more resources to handle it and less likely to take it as a reflection of their inherent human value than youth are.

[Eagledad]

10 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

@Eagledad So glad to hear!

I was actually primarily talking about youth, though, but I assume the adult part wasn't key?

Not that cold-shouldering adults is ok, it's just that adults have more resources to handle it and less likely to take it as a reflection of their inherent human value than youth are.

My experience is youth respond to the adults. That is why a trusting environment where scouts feel free to make their own decisions is so hard to develop and nurture.

The scouting program is an adult program intended to develop youth. The BSA gives pretty clear instructions for delivering the program. But, it's not simple, which is why the adults more often than not screw it up. And, why so many adults selfishly push their own agenda.

Voluntary organizations are by their nature open to manipulation when the group doesn't understand the mission or the methods toward the mission. I used to be the district representative for  helping struggling units, and 9 times out of 10, the problems were a culture of misunderstanding the mission of the program, and/or adults using the program for personal gain.

From my experience, it's all about the adults.

Barry