A first, heartbreaking statement, for me

[MattR]

Welcome to the forum, @Matt940 .

[Mrjeff]

I said what I said and it is what it is.  Regardless of my interpretation many will feel differently and will disagree with his position as well as my interpretation. The Boy Scouts ain't what it used to be and will never be what it was. Like it or not, that's how it is and the results are obvious..  Compair public opinion, membership numbers, public support, religious support, community support and the overall general consensus of people in and outside of Scouting.  It is what it is.

[scoutldr]

10 hours ago, Matt940 said:

American morality has changed and Scouting along with it. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

My morals come from God.  Not from popular opinion.  

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

5 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

I said what I said and it is what it is

But you're not actually willing to say it, apparently. You rely on people inferring what you're talking about. 

And because you're not willing to spell out what you mean and stand by it, the interpretation I land on is that what's ailing BSA is letting all the "riffraff" in. It used to be only the "right" people, and now all the "wrong" people are allowed to join. You think it's wrong, and you're very mad about it, but somehow this has nothing to with DEI. I don't think further comment is needed here. This whole thing falls apart immediately all on its own.

I will simple reiterate that your "right" and "wrong" people approach isn't that of either WOSM or WAGGS, and the scouting movement as a whole has long, long since left this right/wrong people thing behind, if it was ever generally a thing. It was never part of my scouting experience, and those pictures by the German photographer were described to have the theme of freedom to be who you are. Bingo, I recognize that completely. That's what scouts were for me socially. It was a place where I belonged. You seem to want the opposite. You want something that's not scouting, best I can tell. Something that's unkind on purpose.

You can buy versions of the Swedish scout t-shirt with the logo in rainbow and other pride scout items, and that's because everyone is welcome and part of being kind, friendly, helpful, and a good friend is making sure everyone feels it, too. I don't feel excluded as straight, I've never in my whole life felt like someone or something is holding me being straight against me. Similarly, I have never had the color of my skin held against me, so I am completely unbothered by the existence of affinity groups for POC. That it bothers you so much further reinforces my impression that to you, exclusion is core.

As a graduate student in engineering, I loved going to the Society of Women Engineers' national meetings, because for once every single person in this giant crowd is also an engineer. I found mentors and it, for a week, took away the uneasy feeling (based on unfortunate experience) of that some people want you to fail because they don't think you should be there. I encountered them as an adult, and so it was pretty easy to not take the idea that I shouldn't be there seriously, but children absolutely will enter a spiral of self-doubt over those kinds of things. Children need explicit encouragement if anybody ever does!

Anger clouds one's judgement.

What was the purpose of posting this, since you know it's offensive and exclusionary? I presume you will decline an invitation to clarify once again, and so it is left to look like your mind is heavily obscured by reactive emotion. Hurt people hurt people, I suppose. I hope you can heal your hurt and see clearer in the future, even to the point of attaining profound, brilliant glory. May you recognize your true nature and rapidly attain complete, perfect enlightenment.

[qwazse]

The net purpose, as with anything in these forums, is to give us a pulse on our nation’s and our world’s youth who enter and leave BSA.

I manage to only provide a handful of scoutmaster conferences on youth in my troop, and have other meaningful conversations with youth and scouters (some of them minorities) outside of my troop. That’s not a representative sample. And, when one of these people ask probing questions about why things are the way they are (be it membership policies or taught line hitches) I find the frank observations and reactions on this forum to be invaluable.

As to the OP of this thread, two troop alumni were able to come retrieve a youth from camp, but regardless of any training they may take, they won’t be able to serve as one of my second adult leaders on a camping trip for another two years. Most scouters around the world find this to be perverse on multiple levels.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

As to the OP of this thread, two troop alumni were able to come retrieve a youth from camp, but regardless of any training they may take, they won’t be able to serve as one of my second adult leaders on a camping trip for another two years. Most scouters around the world find this to be perverse on multiple levels.

I agree that YPT policies can be a little absurd, but the OP wasn't on that. Check back - it was Eagle94-A1 who brought YPT into it two comments down.

Certainly, the difficulty in formulating a policy to protect youth from sexual abusers that they met through scouting but that doesn't lead to absurd situations where youth have to choose between being scouts and seeing their friends is well worth discussing. But the OP seems to be about how BSA has been destroyed by letting people who aren't white cishet males join the organization and the importance of standing by that opinion because it's a morally correct stand.

[Mrjeff]

8 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

But you're not actually willing to say it, apparently. You rely on people inferring what you're talking about. 

And because you're not willing to spell out what you mean and stand by it, the interpretation I land on is that what's ailing BSA is letting all the "riffraff" in. It used to be only the "right" people, and now all the "wrong" people are allowed to join. You think it's wrong, and you're very mad about it, but somehow this has nothing to with DEI. I don't think further comment is needed here. This whole thing falls apart immediately all on its own.

I will simple reiterate that your "right" and "wrong" people approach isn't that of either WOSM or WAGGS, and the scouting movement as a whole has long, long since left this right/wrong people thing behind, if it was ever generally a thing. It was never part of my scouting experience, and those pictures by the German photographer were described to have the theme of freedom to be who you are. Bingo, I recognize that completely. That's what scouts were for me socially. It was a place where I belonged. You seem to want the opposite. You want something that's not scouting, best I can tell. Something that's unkind on purpose.

You can buy versions of the Swedish scout t-shirt with the logo in rainbow and other pride scout items, and that's because everyone is welcome and part of being kind, friendly, helpful, and a good friend is making sure everyone feels it, too. I don't feel excluded as straight, I've never in my whole life felt like someone or something is holding me being straight against me. Similarly, I have never had the color of my skin held against me, so I am completely unbothered by the existence of affinity groups for POC. That it bothers you so much further reinforces my impression that to you, exclusion is core.

As a graduate student in engineering, I loved going to the Society of Women Engineers' national meetings, because for once every single person in this giant crowd is also an engineer. I found mentors and it, for a week, took away the uneasy feeling (based on unfortunate experience) of that some people want you to fail because they don't think you should be there. I encountered them as an adult, and so it was pretty easy to not take the idea that I shouldn't be there seriously, but children absolutely will enter a spiral of self-doubt over those kinds of things. Children need explicit encouragement if anybody ever does!

Anger clouds one's judgement.

What was the purpose of posting this, since you know it's offensive and exclusionary? I presume you will decline an invitation to clarify once again, and so it is left to look like your mind is heavily obscured by reactive emotion. Hurt people hurt people, I suppose. I hope you can heal your hurt and see clearer in the future, even to the point of attaining profound, brilliant glory. May you recognize your true nature and rapidly attain complete, perfect enlightenment.

 

[Mrjeff]

Actually I said what I  said so I am willing to say it.  Making assumptions about another person's opinions, state of mind or thought processes is very presumptive and often incorrect.  To, me you have completly missed the point but appreciate the effort that you took to evaluate and interpret my initial post, even though you are incorrect.  If you have ever red any of my earlier contributions you would see that I often say what I say and standat attention right next to and along side of what I say.  The funny thing is, this post is about what someone else said.  Hmmmmmm?

 

[Mrjeff]

6 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I agree that YPT policies can be a little absurd, but the OP wasn't on that. Check back - it was Eagle94-A1 who brought YPT into it two comments down.

Certainly, the difficulty in formulating a policy to protect youth from sexual abusers that they met through scouting but that doesn't lead to absurd situations where youth have to choose between being scouts and seeing their friends is well worth discussing. But the OP seems to be about how BSA has been destroyed by letting people who aren't white cishet males join the organization and the importance of standing by that opinion because it's a morally correct stand.

Again, incorrect.   I take offense to the idea of yelling INCLUSION, INCLUSION, INCLUSION from the mountain top but encouraging certain segments of a group to have segregated and separate events and recognition for those groups.  If ANYONE EVEN SUGGESTED that there should be a separate gathering for straight white males the charges of racism and segregation would be shouted by the masses.   But it's just fine and acceptable to have separate events for gay, black, and female members.  This is so blatenly hypothetical that if its not obvious to those who condone this then there is no reason to discuss this any further.

[Mrjeff]

Oh by the way, because I think that something is offensive, then I'm offended, and if I  am stating something that someone else finds offensive then they just have to be offended.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

I went out of my way to ask you what you meant. First you elided and then you said "I said what I said", which amounts to a refusal to clarify. This isn't the first time, either.

Of course it's possible that you didn't mean what I think you meant, because what you wrote can be interpreted many different ways. That's exactly why I asked you for clarification. Surely you're not now shocked that this could occur? 

As written, your OP doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It's like half the story is unwritten. You're relying on the reader to fill in the blanks. Either fill in the blanks explicitly or expect a series of misunderstandings. Clarity is needed here. Please provide it, if you can.

 

May all beings be happy

May all beings be peaceful

May they dwell in the great equanimity

Free from passion, aggression, and prejudice 

[SiouxRanger]

I just can't quite grasp where this all going. Or why?

[Matt940]

On 6/26/2023 at 7:06 AM, scoutldr said:

My morals come from God.  Not from popular opinion.  

Sure they do, but Scouting's morals very much come from popular opinion as they seek to represent the entire nation, not any individual.

Please understand this wasn't personal. It was a bloodless decision based purely on survival, there was no political agenda. They sought, as they always have, to occupy the Nation's moral center, which has moved.

I'm sensing that we're on completely opposite sides of the political spectrum but we're both committed Scouters so I'll bet there's a LOT more that unites us than divides us. I hope you continue your involvement and that I meet you out on the Trail. (And, with this smaller organization, I just might!)

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

6 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I just can't quite grasp where this all going. Or why?

Overall, I can't, either. Had a bunch of statements that are potentially alienating to current scouts not been in the OP and immediate comments, I wouldn't have worried about not quite getting what it's about.

My personal motivation is making sure that all current scouts feel genuinely welcome, and that nobody who is interested in scouting chooses not to join BSA because they fear being treated poorly.

In the service of this, I am now attempting to use the third of the four enlightened actions, magnetizing, since I already tried pacifying and enriching.

Where this will ultimately go - well, I guess we'll have to see.

[Armymutt]

I don't recall race or sexual orientation ever being a part of any Scouting discussion 30 years ago.  We just did Scouting - whether you were White, Black, Hispanic, or Asian in the troops I was in.  No one discussed sexual orientation, so I have no idea how anyone felt in that manner.  Religion-wise, we had Catholics, Mormons, and Protestants.  We even had Brits in one of my troops.  No one cared.  No one even remotely thought to mention it.  No one felt left out or cheated because their special group wasn't held up for recognition and separation from the others.  Now all of a sudden, it is a big deal, mostly driven by the Left with the intent to drive a wedge into what was a unified organization based on a set of ideals.  You either subscribed to them or you didn't participate.  Maybe my experience is a product of the community I was in.  The military is pretty diverse on its own, so it follows that Scouting would be as well.  

Luckily, all Scouting is local, so we don't get this national-level insanity in our District.  Scouts are just Scouts - even the civilian ones.  Frankly, I wish there would be more focus on how to get parents to actually do something in Cub Scouts Packs besides treat it like a baby sitting service.  That's where the energy really needs to be expended.