A first, heartbreaking statement, for me

[Mrjeff]

I'm not going to talk about experience or credentials because that's not what this is all about so please leave those comments out of this.  For the first time at an Eagle Scout Board of Review I received an answer to a commonly asked question.   The question was, "do you plan to continue your Scouting career once you complete the Eagle Scout requirements?" The answer was very disheartening, "Sir, although Scouting has been a great experience, I can't continue participating in an organization that is in conflict with my morals and beliefs."  That is a fine example of a young man who refuses to compromise.  He also has a younger brother who has nearly completed his Eagle Scout requirements, but is doing so as a Lone Scout program rather than be part of a group that has compromised its values. This has nothing to do with inclusion, acceptance or tolerance,  its just an example of a young man willing to stand by his beliefs, morals and home training.  This isn't a teaching oppertunity  or an opportunity for discussion, that is not the purpose of an Eagle Scout Board of Review.  This is an axample of a young man who stands firm on his beliefs no matter how hard others try to change his mind.

 

[DeaconLance]

I would be more impressed had he said he was declining confirmation as an Eagle Scout because by accepting the award he did compromise.  

[Eagle94-A1]

Extremely heartbreaking. And I am glad he is Brave enough to answer truthfully.

The answer we usually get to that question is that current YP policies not only treat 18-20 year olds as essentially useless, but also requires them to give up their friends outside of Scouting. They feel National has no respect for their abilities (I'd rather a bunch of 18-20 year olds ASMs to brand new, just crossed over former Cub Scout leaders), and to ask them to give the friends they have made in school, Scouts, church, etc is ridiculous.

[Mrjeff]

I disagree that he in any way compromised his values.  When this young man entered Scouting he had no idea about the direction that the Scouting organization would take, and at that young age, really didn't care.  As he grew and matured and made a personal choice to become an Eagle Scout, his knowledge, understanding and awareness increased.  He felt compelled to reach his goal of becoming an Eagle Scout even though his view of the BSA became very negative.  This alone strengthens the idea that sexual preference, gender identification, or this false concept of inclusion has no place in the Boy Scouts of America.  I recently saw an ad for patches that celebrate the LGBTQ community, " people of color "  and women in Scouting.  Aren't the straight white male members being excluded or are the powers that be too week to make that available, or would that be racist or homofobic.  Inclusion means inclusion and as far as the fees go, I would like to know just how many young people are EXcluded because they just can't afford the cost.

[Mrjeff]

8 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Extremely heartbreaking. And I am glad he is Brave enough to answer truthfully.

The answer we usually get to that question is that current YP policies not only treat 18-20 year olds as essentially useless, but also requires them to give up their friends outside of Scouting. They feel National has no respect for their abilities (I'd rather a bunch of 18-20 year olds ASMs to brand new, just crossed over former Cub Scout leaders), and to ask them to give the friends they have made in school, Scouts, church, etc is ridiculous.

Yes indeed, I have no idea where the BSA got the idea that they have any authority to direct the activities of anyone outside of a Scouting event.  Is the BSA going to establish a group of investigators to watch what every member is doing at all times?  How far do they think they can go before the whole thing implodes?

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

3 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

This alone strengthens the idea that sexual preference, gender identification, or this false concept of inclusion has no place in the Boy Scouts of America. 

I don't follow. Could you please elaborate?

[Mrjeff]

Sure, some great BSA important person thinks that the YPT rules apply to everyone in Scouting wherever they are, at all times, nregardless if it pertains to Scouting events or not.  The BSA thinks that they have the authority to dictate the everyday relationships especially involving 18-20 year old kids including their friends at school.  This is way far overreach.

 

[scoutldr]

10 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

How far do they think they can go before the whole thing implodes?

It's already imploded, but they refuse to see.  The BSA is a sad shadow of its former self in its quest to satisfy the lowest common denominator rather than set goals that everyone can strive to achieve.

[MikeS72]

8 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I don't follow. Could you please elaborate?

I do not normally comment on these types of posts, but I 'followed' as soon as I read the next line in the post:  " I recently saw an ad for patches that celebrate the LGBTQ community, " people of color "  and women in Scouting.  Aren't the straight white male members being excluded or are the powers that be too week to make that available, or would that be racist or homofobic."

[MikeS72]

6 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

especially involving 18-20 year old kids including their friends at school

This is the one part of your comments that I agree is a problem.  It is not at all uncommon for a student to turn 18 early in their senior year of high school (or sometimes late in their junior year) and many of their scout friends remain 16 or 17 until late in their senior year or not at all before graduating.  My own scout is on the other end of that spectrum, as he has always been among the youngest in his class, and crossed over as an AOL to the troop as a 10 year old.  He attended his first summer camp as a 10 year old.  ALL of his scouting friends will turn 18 between 7 and 10 months earlier than him expecting them to no longer be friends outside of scouting is unrealistic.

As for the rest of the 'inside and outside of scouting' part of YPT, there are data driven reasons for that.  I spent a lot of time before and during the bankruptcy reading letters submitted to the court, and many of the original reports sent to national after an incident occurred.  An awful lot of those incidents did not take place at an official scouting event, but rather were the result of scouters (or youth members in many cases) who made themselves known to the families, and made those families comfortable enough to allow them to be alone with their children.  The abuse then took place in their home, or some other non scouting venue.  The 'inside and outside of scouting' recommendations at least show that an attempt was made to prevent abuse from happening, and that if it does happen it is 100% on the perpetrator and the perpetrator alone.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

11 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

The BSA thinks that they have the authority to dictate the everyday relationships especially involving 18-20 year old kids including their friends at school.  This is way far overreach.

I don't quite see what this has to do with sexual preferences, gender identity, or inclusion, false or otherwise.

I mean, every single person in the BSA now and in the past has had sexual preferences and gender identities, and I'm not sure what false inclusion is in this context. Based on what you wrote next, perhaps you mean ignoring classism? But I'm asking in order to make sure I understand you correctly.

[Matt940]

I commend this young man for his maturity and hope that many others follow suit. Having spent 20 years in political opposition to the National Movement, I can tell you: They don't care what you think. They are moving forward with great purpose and intent and you can take it or you can leave it. A Scouting career of bitter intransigence hurts the Movement, and this guy gets that.

I left 20 years ago as I felt Scouting was out of line with my values. Now I'm back for Scouting 2.0, with my kids, and couldn't be happier.

I was away from Scouting long enough to know that the finest folks around are in the Movement. I don't want to lose any of you.. I hope all Scouters will find it in their hearts to embrace the ideals of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. But if you're not willing to put in the effort, please consider stepping aside for the good of the Movement and your own peace of mind.

American morality has changed and Scouting along with it. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

[Mrjeff]

If it didn't take place at a Scouting event it isn't a Scouting issue.  Trying to dictate what a young person does on /heir own time with their friends and associates is no concern of Scouting.  This may appear as unsympathetic but Scouting is not  responsible for every member at all times.  These rules appear to be another attempt to insulate the BSA from future problems.  The idea of fals inclusion is demonstrated by the BSA when they have special recognition for groups that are singular in nature.  Patches and gatherings for black Scouts, LGBTQ Scouts and female Scouts recognizes individual groups and incourages divisiveness not inclusion.   If there is not a gathering for straight white males, that group is being segregated and discriminated against.  Inclusiviness involves everyone, not specific groups inside of a larger group.  All of this malarkey is being propagated ti keep the business of the Boy Scouts alive, when in reality the Boy Scouts is following the path of the Hudson. 

 

 

[mrjohns2]

36 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

These rules appear to be another attempt to insulate the BSA from future problems.

Actually as @MikeS72 said, this is due to past problems. I too have read many of the case files that were released a few years back by a law firm. Many involved the abused Scout going over to an adults house outside of a Scout activity. 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

On 6/23/2023 at 8:56 PM, Mrjeff said:

"Sir, although Scouting has been a great experience, I can't continue participating in an organization that is in conflict with my morals and beliefs."  That is a fine example of a young man who refuses to compromise.  He also has a younger brother who has nearly completed his Eagle Scout requirements, but is doing so as a Lone Scout program rather than be part of a group that has compromised its values.

When this young man entered Scouting he had no idea about the direction that the Scouting organization would take, and at that young age, really didn't care.  As he grew and matured and made a personal choice to become an Eagle Scout, his knowledge, understanding and awareness increased.  He felt compelled to reach his goal of becoming an Eagle Scout even though his view of the BSA became very negative.

So, am I understanding you correctly to be saying that the way in which the Eagle Scout's view of the BSA had soured to the point where he felt that it was in conflict with his morals and beliefs was only with that the BSA has policies around whom older scouts and scouters can spend time with outside of scouting? If so, that wasn't clear to me at all from the OP or your first comment.

I still don't see the connection between YPT rules and "false inclusion", but now I'm clear on what you mean by it. Taking my best guess here - is it that both the YPT rules and trying to be welcoming to subgroups the BSA has traditionally vehemently excluded are attempts to save an organization that has already been ruined by its own ego-driven failure to protect youth? Really not sure this is what you meant though.