Scout wont advance

[RainShine]

Our troop has a Scout that cant be bothered with advancement. I'll call him Bobby. He joined before pandemic and he's probably 15 or 16 now. He told me, years ago, he didn't want to do rank advancement. I told him he couldn't disrespect it to the other Scouts. That's been our agreement. Sure enough, he's never done a thing (except I told his parents they had to do the Scout rank youth protection or he couldn't participate, so he did that). I have heard the other Scouts rib him for it, and tell him how embarrassing it must be, but it doesn't bother him. He wont do it. And sure enough, Bobby has no skills. Doesn't really want to do Scouts, just wants to talk politics.

Okay fast forward. Last night at PLC I asked the patrol leaders where their guys were with rank advancement, and if they needed anything from me. The one PL says, oh you don't have to worry about the new guy Billy, he talked to Bobby and now Billy has decided not to do rank advancement. <aneurism here>

I take responsibility for this situation. But I ask your advice. Please advise.

Edited May 23, 2023 by RainShine

[Navybone]

Does Bobby do anything with the troop - does he go on campouts, backpacking, etc?   Is he disruptive when others work on advancement? 

We have a scout who is also not interested in advancement, but loves to go camping.  We make him go through the actions (advancement) steps to appreciate in camps -  Fireman chit, Tot'n chit, stove and cooking safety, setting up a tent, first aid, etc.   Does not bring his book, does not participate in everything, but has to in those safety and overall camping safety items.   He will not cook with others, only himself, but he has to follow all the same rules.  We encourage him to advance since he is doing most of the work, but just wants to learn how to camp.

[qwazse]

Kudos to Bobby and Billy. Stop talking about advancement and start talking skills.

Specifically for Bobby, tell him that strangers on the internet want him to recite the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and all four verses of the Star Spangled Banner from memory before he says one more word about politics.

This week, we want him to memorize the headstones of the graves he decorates.

Then, before he says his second word about politics, we want him to arrange a town hike with his patrol to the local court house to meet your mayor, he sheriff, or some other elected officer.

Then we want him to coordinate your troops next flag retirement ceremony.

Then if you are near a naturalization center, we want him to prepare welcome packets for new immigrants and perform the opening ceremony in their honor.

Tell him that Eagle Scout strangers don’t give a fig about the patch over his left pocket. But, in two years, when it’s time to register to vote, he’d better darn well be prepared to run my country.

[RainShine]

He goes on campouts infrequently, but yes he went this past weekend to Camporee. He participated some.  And apparently the range officer asked him and his buddy to clean rifles at the end of the day, and they did it. Yes he can be disruptive at times. Bored with "scout stuff", he will change the subject to Ukraine war or whatever.

He is a likeable fellow, funny and charismatic. No one, including me, would want him gone. 

His best buddy in the troop -  they didn't know each other before Scouts - will certainly be Eagle someday. So he's not affecting everyone. But we have definitely set a precedent here. And evidently the younger Scouts now consider this is a legit option.

 

[RainShine]

skills not advancement, I like that. but he doesnt want to do Scouty skills stuff. Cant be bothered with participating in KP duty, sits in his tent eating sugar puffs. Everyone is tying knots or whatever, he sits by himself on his phone.

But yes, thanks Mr. quazse, for the advice. You make a good point sir.

Edited May 23, 2023 by RainShine

[InquisitiveScouter]

It is a legit option...  not doing advancement, that is.

But not doing KP when it is his turn on the Duty Roster?  No way!  That is the price of admission. (You didn't say, but I am assuming your Patrols have duty rosters.)

We have had Scouts who have not wished to work on advancement, and we are fine with that.  Just had one turn 18 last December.  Great kid, always there, friendly, but no interest in working on rank.  (I did cajole him over the years to at least earn First Class.  That should be the measure of all Scouts. IMO, because it is skills based.)

But, if his Patrol, or the whole Troop, are doing an activity, he must be there.  Troop Swim, for example... He does not have to swim, but he does have to be there with the rest of the group, instead of off on his own.  That is a health and safety issue.

I give no quarter to dissent on issues of "health and safety". 

Food in the tents?  No way.  Health and safety.  I have seen too many chipmunks, mice, skunks, ants, and bears!! in tents because Scouts have food in tents.  (If you do not follow my instructions when it comes to health and safety, you cannot come camping with us.  Simple.) 

Does he wear a uniform?  Is he part of an active Patrol?  Does he know and try to live by the Scout Oath and the Scout Law?  Does he love the outdoors?  Does he associate with and interact well with adults?  Is he growing as a leader (sounds like he has influence...)???  Do you see him experiencing some personal growth? 

If yes, then he is 7 out of 8 for Scouting!  And that is fine!

He is learning from all of your examples.  How you treat him in his decision to not do advancement is a lesson for him, as well.

Happy Scouting

 

[MattR]

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to advance. There is a problem with not wanting to help his patrol. There is nothing wrong with being interested in politics or, likely, world history.

Ask him if he wants to be in scouts. Ask him what he enjoys. He convinced another scout that advancement is a waste of time. Is that because he just hates scouts or because he'd rather learn skills a different way. Maybe he really wants to lead. Or maybe he's there for no other reason than a parent is making him go.

Help him identify and solve his problem with scouts. You'll both be happier.

[scoutldr]

Advancement should be a by-product of the program, not the purpose of it.  SM Conference can be done any time...and as often as necessary.  Get in his head, figure out what he wants out of the program.  How is his home life?  Scouting might be all he has.  Don't take it away.  If he's pulling his weight, not disruptive, and is having fun, then advancement is not important.

[DuctTape]

Yep. Advancement is a method, it is not the goal. 

[Eagle94-A1]

There is WAY to much focus on advancement in general, and specifically Eagle. EAGLE IS NOT THE GOALS! (major emphasis). Sadly I am seeing more and more "Eagle Scouts" who cannot do basic skills, sometimes stuff that Scouts have a reputation for doing. Best example I can give is the Eagle Scout who at a first aid competition could not do basic Tenderfoot thru First Class First Aid skills. when I asked if he had First Aid Merit badge, he stated he " I took that my first year at summer camp."

I'd rather have the Life for Life, who knew his stuff and was able to recognize I had hypothermia and treat me when I was hours away from a hospital.

[InquisitiveScouter]

45 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

There is WAY to much focus on advancement in general, and specifically Eagle. EAGLE IS NOT THE GOALS! (major emphasis). Sadly I am seeing more and more "Eagle Scouts" who cannot do basic skills, sometimes stuff that Scouts have a reputation for doing. Best example I can give is the Eagle Scout who at a first aid competition could not do basic Tenderfoot thru First Class First Aid skills. when I asked if he had First Aid Merit badge, he stated he " I took that my first year at summer camp."

I'd rather have the Life for Life, who knew his stuff and was able to recognize I had hypothermia and treat me when I was hours away from a hospital.

This, and even then, we are giving the advancement away.  Many Scouts are not earning, they are just attending and getting a badge.  I see this in several units, and definitely at Summer Camp.

Whenever our Scouts are challenged in a badge program at camp, and actually complete the requirements as stated, I go out of my way to thank that instructor/counselor (not the same thing... a 16 year old is NOT a merit badge counselor) for their program.

I wish there was a better way for "quality control" or standardization/evaluation of these things...

Edited May 24, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[Armymutt]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

This, and even then, we are giving the advancement away.  Many Scouts are not earning, they are just attending and getting a badge.  I see this in several units, and definitely at Summer Camp.

Whenever our Scouts are challenged in a badge program at camp, and actually complete the requirements as stated, I go out of my way to thank that instructor/counselor (not the same thing... a 16 year old is NOT a merit badge counselor) for their program.

I wish there was a better way for "quality control" or standardization/evaluation of these things...

My thoughts too, but then this is the reality of society.  Only those with credentialing exams really require one to maintain skills.  Everything has become a box check - get it done, get it recorded, forget about it.  I'm guilty of it.  Did a masters of public health over the last two years.  I couldn't tell you how to do an ANOVA if my life depended on it.  It's not valuable to my actual job.  I knew that going in, but someone, somewhere long ago decided that this was the degree needed to advance.  I'm not alone.  On the flip side, most of the core skills needed for Eagle are valuable for life.  I've dusted the cobwebs off of several of them over the years, even during my 25 year hiatus from scouts.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

55 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

My thoughts too, but then this is the reality of society.  Only those with credentialing exams really require one to maintain skills.  Everything has become a box check - get it done, get it recorded, forget about it.  I'm guilty of it.  Did a masters of public health over the last two years.  I couldn't tell you how to do an ANOVA if my life depended on it.  It's not valuable to my actual job.  I knew that going in, but someone, somewhere long ago decided that this was the degree needed to advance.  I'm not alone.  On the flip side, most of the core skills needed for Eagle are valuable for life.  I've dusted the cobwebs off of several of them over the years, even during my 25 year hiatus from scouts.  

There is a difference... when you completed your Masters, you did so through an accredited program.   When you learned your statistics, and did your ANOVA (Analysis of Variance, for inquiring minds...), did EDGE... your professor explained and demonstrated (hopefully), then guided you through a problem set.  Finally, you were enabled (or evaluated, which I think would be a better use of the letter 😜 ) through a test, and on a final exam.  You showed a level of proficiency, at the time.

I still have to open my Scout Handbook to review and refresh skills.  If you needed to do an ANOVA, you'd be able to brush up pretty quick, I'm sure.

What I am getting at is that many Scouts never even learn the skills!  Here's an example with orienteering...

The First Class requirements say "Using a map and compass, complete an orienteering course that covers at least one mile and requires measuring the height and/or width of designated items (tree, tower, canyon, ditch, etc.)."

Most camps and units I have observed doing this give the Scouts a map with all the points already on it, with courses, and distances, driving you to take a selected route.  When you do that, it is not orienteering... that is using a map and compass, but it is not orienteering.

For our orienteering, there is a master map.  Each Scout gets a basic map.  He has to copy the points from the master map onto his, and figure out what route to take to visit all the points (if that is the objective, which it usually is.)  When he visits each control point, we have a code on an orienteering marker which he must copy down and bring back to show he visited the point.

During the course, at one control point, there will be a height/width problem.  Younger Scouts have to do a simple height problem (stick or felling method) My favorite for the older Scouts is to do the distance across a stream or road (without being able to cross).  That is probably the most difficult measurement to solve from the Handbook.  (The Handbook shows equivalent isosceles right triangles.  Once they master that, and if they have the math skills, I teach them similar triangles as shown, because it is quicker, requires less space, and can be done without a compass. )

I have seen no other unit or Scout Camp that teaches to that standard.  (Even Orienteering MB is usually watered down.)  Yet, if you read the Scout Handbook, and see what they are getting at, this is how it should be.

I taught all those skills at IOLS, and most unit leaders loved it, because they had never been to that level of exposure or knowledge before. 

If your unit does this, kudos! 

P.S.  For a real challenge, I sprinkle fake markers throughout the course, too, to make sure they are actually map reading and using paces for distance, rather than just hunting for markers...

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[yknot]

7 hours ago, Armymutt said:

Did a masters of public health over the last two years.  I couldn't tell you how to do an ANOVA if my life depended on it.  It's not valuable to my actual job.  I knew that going in, but someone, somewhere long ago decided that this was the degree needed to advance. 

You have an MPH plus a DVM degree? The only other person I know who is military and had both is a friend who wound up a Brigadier General assigned to  the Pentagon. You have a unique background for today's challenges and are perhaps being a tad modest. 

[qwazse]

On 5/23/2023 at 7:05 PM, RainShine said:

... Bored with "scout stuff", he will change the subject to Ukraine war or whatever. …

If you want to have something up your sleeve for the next time Bobby spouts off, PM me, and I’ll share footage of Ukrainian defense forces using every scout skill in the book to rescue one of their mates.