Scoutmaster Requirements to Advance

[ScoutDad197]

Our Scoutmaster announced he will require knowledge of all knots at Scoutmaster conferences. Is this appropriate? Some of the boys are now worried they may not know all knots by heart for these conferences and will fail their conference. 

[T2Eagle]

Welcome to the forums.

There are so many things wrong with this it's hard to know where to start.  First, the rules are clear.  This is from the BSA Guide to Advancement:   "The unit leader (Scoutmaster) conference, regardless of the rank or program, is conducted according to the guidelines in the Troop Leader Guidebook (volume 1). Note that a Scout must participate or take part in one; it is not a “test.” Requirements do not say the Scout must “pass” a conference."  Further,  "The conference is not a retest of the requirements upon which a Scout has been signed off. It is a forum for discussing topics such as ambitions, life purpose, and goals for future achievement, for counseling, and also for obtaining feedback on the unit’s program. "  https://www.scouting.org/resources/guide-to-advancement/

More importantly, knots are not a thing unto themselves, they are a means to an end, a set of tools we use to accomplish other tasks.  When I was a scout, many many moons ago, we learned them not because we were more virtuous than today's scouts but because we had to use them to keep up our tents and for other practical purposes around camp.   If your scouts aren't learning to use knots, as opposed to just "learning their knots" that's on you and your program, not them.  If you want your scouts to know knots, get your PLC to plan fun activities on campouts that involve using knots --- make some camp gadgets, lash together some toys, run some games, etc.  If you incorporate the use of knots ON A REGULAR BASIS into fun things you do, scouts will learn knots.  If you just expect to have scouts memorize knots at a meeting like they're memorizing the declension of a noun you'll have taught them to successfully cram for an exam, and then see that information dissipate just as quickly.

Edited May 22, 2023 by T2Eagle

[ScoutDad197]

Thank you for your response. Not sure how to handle but we will see if he refuses to sign books if boys don’t know every knot. 

[qwazse]

Point: I have a scout with ADHD who is struggling to master knots. He’s doing it, but it’s a challenge. How is it fair to him if your scouts can advance without knowing how to tie all of the knots that they should?

Counter-point: is the SM testing on land navigation? Safe swim defense? Fire building? Cooking? Bill of rights? Pull-ups? If not, why is the conference only covering a fraction of he skills a scout should have?

[Double Eagle]

Ok, this SM is way out there on his duties.  A SM conference is always an "end of requirements", one-time thing.  A SM conference can be held anytime, can be casual talk around the campfire, during a meal, or a formal uniformed sit down.  I did SM conferences if a scout slowed down, attendance dropped, saw a change in the scout.  They can also be for positive aspects such as being elected to the OA or troop leader position.  

This SM is missing so much by trying to test the scouts.  Nothing worse than putting the stress of the "test" to a scout.  How about watching the scout and when they do something correct, it gets acknowledged.   This could be as simple as using a taut-line hitch on a tent rope at an outing.  I always get a laugh when students would ask "is this testable".  My response usually was "everything is testable, just the time is different".

[SSScout]

Your SM is missing an important idea here if he/she is only concerned with "knowing knots".  The Scout's attitude toward the ideals,  the lore of Scouting, her/his expectations of Scouting is what should be the goal of the SMConference.  I have known Leaders , not just in Scouting, who might "twiddle" with a piece of rope while they talk,  gives one something to think about . 

 

Way before I was "just a twinkle in his wife's eye",  My dad was a steel rigger. He had never been a Scout. When I became a Scout, I found ropes and knots to be alot of fun and very useful.  My grandfather on my mom's side had joined the navy , but was under age at the time, so when he was found out, he was discharged. He saved, and I have in my "files" his joining and discharge papers. He had taken training on the USS Constitution (!! ) when it was still used as a regular training ship. Talk about rope work..... I thought this was infinitely cool.  I inherited stuff,  often my dad took old things in as  payment for his landscaping work. From his workshop, I found/took in   200 feet of 7/8" manila rope and two double sheave blocks. "Block and Tackle"...   I used that for lifting and moving things for many years before the rope finally gave out. Manila does not stretch appreciably compared to nylon/poly.  I once set up a rig where by a bunch of Cub Scouts had fun out pulling all the adults in the Pack.   

Try buying that kind of gear at today's prices..... 

Use knots?  Ropes? When I have the opportunity to train adult Scouters, and /or Cub Scout Day Camp, I delight in teaching the jargon and use of ropes.  Running end,  standing part,  over loop, under loop, For practice and teaching purpose,  I create  a 5'  length of 3/8" sash cord (cotton, poly doesn't behave well for knot practice), dip each end in polyethylene to prevent fraying,  spray paint one half end a contrasting color (red, or blue?) for contrast when tying knots.  These lengths I pass out to the Cubs/Leaders to keep.  I sometimes see them hanging from beltloops at Scout functions . Expense?  sure, but it is worth it for the resulting pride of accomplishment.  

Tents, canopies, clothes line, "monkey" bridges,  tug o' war,  circular tug o' peace,  boating,  back/horse/mule packing (diamond hitch),  car/truck/trailer loading,  your shoe laces,,,,, 

Bungee /elastic cords are fine, but a good Trucker's Hitch, Bowline winch down will always work for securing the load on your roof rack.... 

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

A local Troop was doing this, as well as re-testing at BOR's.  Because their BOR's were so intensive, the Troop was taking months to schedule a BOR when a Scout requested one.

I had a parent from that Troop ask me about this... I was shocked at their report of the situation, and told them this was not appropriate, and that they should point out exactly what @T2Eagle cited above.  I also told them that if their Troop leadership was unresponsive, they were welcome to join us.

I followed up with a phone call to that unit's Commissioner, and to the District Advancement Chair.  Don't know if anything ever came of that...

However, about three weeks later, half the Troop bailed and came to join us.  Most of the Scouts ranked up very quickly...  That Troop now is in danger of collapse.

That said, I understand the desire to do this.  Scout skills are abysmal.  Adult knowledge of Scout skills is abysmal.  And, if older Scouts and adults don't know what they are doing, how can they teach?

I have been working on the latter... our adults' skill sets are leaps and bounds beyond other Troops in our area.  The PLC and SM Corps has been working on the former, through program.  Our Scouts actually do not like to go to District events, because they routinely trounce the competition in Scout skills events.  It is no fun for them 😜 

I'm an advocate for bringing back "testing", at least at the First Class and Eagle ranks.

[InquisitiveScouter]

45 minutes ago, Double Eagle said:

A SM conference is always an "end of requirements", one-time thing.

Actually, it is not.  An SM conference can occur at any point during the journey to the rank.  This is a common misconception, because it is always listed last, just before the BOR requirement.

From the G2A. para 4.2.3.5:

The unit leader (Scoutmaster) conference, regardless of the rank or program, is conducted according to the guidelines in the Troop Leader Guidebook (volume 1). Note that a Scout must participate or take part in one; it is not a “test.” Requirements do not say the Scout must “pass” a conference. While it makes sense to hold one after other requirements for a rank are met, it is not required that it be the last step before the board of review. This is an important consideration for Scouts on a tight schedule to meet requirements before age 18. Last-minute work can sometimes make it impossible to fit the conference in before that time. Scheduling it earlier can avoid unnecessary extension requests.

The conference is not a retest of the requirements upon which a Scout has been signed off. It is a forum for discussing topics such as ambitions, life purpose, and goals for future achievement, for counseling, and also for obtaining feedback on the unit’s program. In some cases, work left to be completed—and perhaps why it has not been completed—may be discussed just as easily as that which is finished. Ultimately, conference timing is up to the unit. Some leaders hold more than one along the way, and the Scout must be allowed to count any of them toward the requirement.

And, you can have more than one!

Edited May 22, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[MattR]

45 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I'm an advocate for bringing back "testing", at least at the First Class and Eagle ranks.

Testing isn't necessarily bad. It's failing without recourse that causes problems. When I had scouts that didn't know the knots we worked on it right there. They relearned before the end of the conference and got signed off. After a few ranks they didn't have problems again. I never had to re teach skills at an eagle SMC. What the scouts learned was that failure was just a step in the process.

I asked my scouts if there was a way they would prefer getting that feedback (like knot relays and other games) and their response was knot relays were worse, boring and less effective. Practicing with a map, for a counter example, was better suited in the field. First aid is similar to knots in their view. Probably because it's just hard to make a fun game out of.

Anyway, it gets down to teaching that failure, or rather improvement, is an ongoing process. You can spend years learning how to sharpen knives. Nobody learns a knot the first time and yet the process is one and done.

I also learned that a lot of scouts struggle with failure, just like adults. So when they're asked to come up with a fun game to use those skills their first response is no, not gonna have a game for a skill they don't feel comfortable with.

That's the rub. Scouts see check boxes because that's similar to what they do in school. The adults are also shown check boxes at IOLS. I mean, all of the first class skills are taught in a day. Nobody sees a culture of improvement when it comes to advancement. These are skills, not facts. Facts can be seen once and memorized. Skills seem obvious but slowly reveal complexity that requires constant effort.

Mastering the first class skills can't happen in a year. In five years, if the scouts worked on constantly improving their skills, they could be really good. Creating that culture, in a fun environment, is the crux of scouting. Unfortunately, I don't see any resources from the bsa to help create that.

[fred8033]

Ongoing i

16 minutes ago, MattR said:

Testing isn't necessarily bad. ...  Anyway, it gets down to teaching that failure, or rather improvement, is an ongoing process.

Ongoing improvement is good.  Practice is good.  Finding a reason to perfect and grow skills is good.  The problem is referring to it as a test.  In the SMC, it's not.  It's part of the conversation and not a pass or fail condition.

[BisonBison]

The Patrol method breaks down if those signing off ranks don't have the skills themselves. Post-COVID (or for whatever reason), I've inherited a Troop that has a significant attenuation of skills - knots included. I know what the handbook says, but I chose to use the SM conference to assess knowledge. If a Scout isn't adequate, he gets some on the spot tutoring. If the deficit is too great, he gets sent away to review and refresh. He can come back the next day or whenever he is ready. I don't look for perfection, but if rank is to mean anything and Scout knowledge has any value, there has to be some part of the system that creates accountability. Nobody's Scouting career has been derailed by having to spend an extra bit of time learning the square lashing. 

[DuctTape]

22 minutes ago, BisonBison said:

The Patrol method breaks down if those signing off ranks don't have the skills themselves. Post-COVID (or for whatever reason), I've inherited a Troop that has a significant attenuation of skills - knots included. I know what the handbook says, but I chose to use the SM conference to assess knowledge. If a Scout isn't adequate, he gets some on the spot tutoring. If the deficit is too great, he gets sent away to review and refresh. He can come back the next day or whenever he is ready. I don't look for perfection, but if rank is to mean anything and Scout knowledge has any value, there has to be some part of the system that creates accountability. Nobody's Scouting career has been derailed by having to spend an extra bit of time learning the square lashing. 

The SM has the authority to decide who may sign-off. If the PL does not have the skill themselves, then they should not be granted authority to sign-off.

The continual re-testing of a skill CAN be done if it is to be used as a requisite for being able to sign-off on another scout's requirement.

For example, Scout Timmy is a new patrol leader, he wants to be able to sign off on his patrol's knot requirements. The SM says sure, let's see if you can do them first. This is not a retest for advancement, but to be granted additional authority. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by DuctTape
Spelling typo

[Double Eagle]

Sorry for my earlier post as I was typing with fingers of fire.  I couldn't have left off a more important "not" in my sentence of "A SM conference is NOT always an "end of requirements", one-time thing".  I apologize for the error, but for those that read my entire post may have caught my error.  

  

[SSScout]

""Check boxes like in school"...

But life isn't about "check boxes".   We teach history, math, geography, not just to check off boxes, but to TRY and make sure that our progeny don't have to learn the same stuff our GGgrandparents  did , perhaps at risk/cost of their lives.   

Scouting is fairly simple by comparison.  We have automobiles and airplanes, but still walk. Blisters can be avoided by ....  Shelter is nice, so we set up fabric roofs, held by sticks and rope.  Food is better if slightly burnt, so we make fires and cook....  If these things are not TAUGHT and LEARNT and USED,  Scouting becomes less fun and more "oh gee dad, do I have to?"     The games can , should be used to  ensure the skills are there when needed.  

Ropes and knots especially can be fun and even "magical"   .  Teach the chain knot, demo the shortening loops,   Show both the INSIDE Bowline (correct) and the OUTSIDE Bowline (works, but incorrect)  and the LOSERS Bowline (looks right, fails miserably).    Build  Lookout Towers to teach basic engineering and lashing AND knots.   Watch Master and Commander ,  and/or The Old Man And The Sea..... 

Scouting?   Well, what is Scouting?  Remember B P's response to the question:  "...prepared for what?"   " Why, for any old thing...".