Treasurer says we have to send money to the troop for crossover scouts

[Nate_m]

Hello all! It's my first post and I'm learning a lot so far. Thanks for all the help.

Seeing the need for more energy in our pack leadership, I am now taking over as Cubmaster. I also have a new, energized Committee Chair and we are so excited to breath new life into our program for these kids!

While going over some expenses we had last weekend for camping, our treasurer, who is a carryover from the last committee, said we haven't given the Troop any money for the past few years for the scouts crossing over and that we needed to catch up. I've been involved in scouting for a long time and I have never heard of such a thing. I was under the impression that the money our scouts worked hard raising was for them. Our troop doesn't really contribute to our pack in any meaningful way. I've only ever seen one or two scouts from the troop attend a couple of our pack meetings in the past three years. 

So to my question, is this normal? I thought the troop would have their own opportunities for fundraising for the scouts once they crossed over. Am I missing something? 

Thanks again for the input! So much to learn :-)

[MattR]

Welcome to the forum, @Nate_m .

All I can think of that relates to this is we have individual scout accounts that scouts can use to pay for scout activities and when a scout transfers to a different troop we'll send that troop that money.

[mrjohns2]

10 minutes ago, MattR said:

scout accounts that scouts can use to pay for scout activities

This is all it should be. Unless there is some type of dues sharing agreement. We calculated it out and basically, by March, 90% of all expenses have been incurred, so our 2nd year Webelos pay full dues. The 10% we use to pay for a plaque / arrow. 

[Armymutt]

The only money we send to a troop is residual from the Scout that joins them.  We operate under a program where the Scout receives 100% credit for the money raised through fundraising.  This is because we are small and have about a 30% participation in fundraising.  If a Scout earns AOL and moves on to a troop, the credit they earned can be transferred to the troop they join.  So far, this has been $20.  

[Nate_m]

I see. So no general fund that goes toward general pack expenses. You all maintain an individual ledger for each scout and he / she takes it with them when they go. That could significantly impact that overall experience we have for our pack. We'll have to mull that one over. Not something I'm willing to overturn the applecart right now over, so we'll probably do status quo on this one. Thanks all. 

[mrjohns2]

Yes. We pass through all expenses and all fundraising. So, if a family truly doesn’t want to fundraise, that is fine, just pay. 50/50? Fine. Tons of fundraising? You almost and some have, covered it all. 

[FireStone]

My Pack does not send any money up to the Troop at crossover, nor have we ever been asked to. In fact it was the Troop that informed me that no money was expected because dues were paid to the Pack in the fall and that would carry the scouts through to the next fall. And that because this Troop does their fundraising in the fall and winter, crossover scouts don't have opportunities to fundraise and so they shouldn't be expected to be financially responsible for contributing until they've had a chance to fully participate in the troop.

[Armymutt]

47 minutes ago, Nate_m said:

I see. So no general fund that goes toward general pack expenses. You all maintain an individual ledger for each scout and he / she takes it with them when they go. That could significantly impact that overall experience we have for our pack. We'll have to mull that one over. Not something I'm willing to overturn the applecart right now over, so we'll probably do status quo on this one. Thanks all. 

The pack has no expenses.  We sit down in June and calculate how much it will cost to purchase all required advancement, recharter the adults, recharter the unit, and how much we want to budget toward events.  This is then divided by the number of Scouts registered.  Everyone is required to pay this amount as "dues".  If we identify something that we need, like square readers for popcorn sales, this will get factored into the dues if we don't have enough residual money to cover it.  Residual money comes from donations during popcorn sales, abandoned money when someone moves or quits, and un-earned advancement.  We don't have enough people to warrant cooking as a group.  Despite complaints from a parent, no one has stepped forward to volunteer as a Grubmaster - surprise!  We do need to look at the cost of replacing our PWD track in the next few years, so we'll probably incorporate that into the dues so it doesn't hit all at once.

[DannyG]

Unless your Pack had some agreement to send money with crossovers, then no. My Pack has never contributed any money to a Troop. Registered Cub Scouts can be transferred over to the Troop charter for the remainder of the year, so there is no additional charter fee. If the Troop needs funds to cover their own expenses, then they should be collecting dues from those scouts. When my Cub Scout transferred, he was assessed prorated dues we had to pay to the Troop. We never assumed the Pack was going to pay this.

[InquisitiveScouter]

@Nate_m, you are missing the fundamental premise.

ALL, repeat ALL, monies fundraised belong to the Chartering Organization.  Period.  Those monies NEVER belong to the Scout, nor to the Unit!!

Now, that said, a CO is allowed to use SOME, repeat SOME, of the monies fundraised for the benefit of individual Scouts, and SOLELY for Scouting purposes.  The IRS sets the rules for this.  In a nutshell, a Scout may not receive a substantial benefit, although the IRS has never defined exactly what a "substantial benefit" is.  It is a gray area.  We can go deep down that rabbit hole if you like...

The Unit Committee is acting on behalf of the CO when developing financial policies for sharing fundraised monies.  The CO (if they care to) has final say over the disposition of all fundraised monies.  99.99% of them let the unit figure that out.  Rarely will you hear of a CO interjecting into a Unit's business, but it has happened.

Our unit uses a 70-30 split.  So, if a Scout raises $100, $70 goes to the unit general fund, and $30 is kept for use on behalf of the Scout. 

If a Cub Scout never uses the $30, then that money may transfer over to the Troop, but only into the Scout's individual account, and not the Troop general fund.  If the Scout never uses these funds, and ceases to be a member of the unit, then, and only then, do we transfer it back to the general fund.  Fundraised monies may never be given to the individual or used to pay for items not furthering the purposes of Scouting.  In the IRS's eyes, this becomes taxable income.

If your Pack Committee has a policy in place to transfer these monies to the Troop, then you should adhere to that.  It would be best if that was in writing in some kind of by-laws or policies book the Pack keeps.  Good luck finding one 😜

Final note... it is illegal for you to transfer monies from a Pack under one CO to a Troop under another CO, without the knowledge of both CO's.  This is tantamount to theft, so please tread carefully.   This would be a donation from CO#1 to CO#2, and the financial powers that be may want some paper trail for accounting/tax purposes.

 

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/12/03/individual-scout-accounts/

[Nate_m]

This is awesome. Thank you for the link.

And your first post makes sense. Our CO is the same for both the pack and troop. I like the idea of the 70/30 split. It's a way to build rainy-day funds for things like replacing the derby track, maintenance on the pack trailer, or in our case purchasing a pack trailer, while at the same time building incentive for all to participate in the fundraising opportunities. 

Either way, I think it's a conversation we need to sit down and have as a full pack committee once it's been established this summer.  Thanks for the detailed explanation and reminder about the CO ultimately "owning" everything. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

Also, to be clear... we do not set up actual individual accounts for Scouts.  It is simply money in the Troop account that is earmarked for use by the Scout.  Money does not go from Troop account #12345 to Scout account #67890.  All money stays in and is paid from Troop account #12345.

Edited May 10, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[mrjohns2]

3 hours ago, Nate_m said:

It's a way to build rainy-day funds for things like replacing the derby track, maintenance on the pack trailer, or in our case purchasing a pack trailer, while at the same time building incentive for all to participate in the fundraising opportunities. 

We budget for that and include it in the dues.

[T2Eagle]

8 hours ago, Nate_m said:

I see. So no general fund that goes toward general pack expenses. You all maintain an individual ledger for each scout and he / she takes it with them when they go. That could significantly impact that overall experience we have for our pack. We'll have to mull that one over. Not something I'm willing to overturn the applecart right now over, so we'll probably do status quo on this one. Thanks all. 

I don't want to speak for others, but the way you're describing it probably isn't what people are referring to.  Most likely what folks are talking about with individual scout accounts is that there is a general fund for Pack expenses, but in addition to the general fund there are opportunities for individual scouts to have some of the fundraising they do be earmarked for individual expenses they may incur.

For instance, if there is a popcorn sale you may ear mark 2/3 of the monies raised by an individual scout's efforts go to the general fund.  This generally will cover Pack expenses like advancement costs, Pack meeting costs, etc.  Then the remaining 1/3 that a scout's efforts produced can be earmarked for more individual expenses --- maybe the cost charged for someone participating in a campout, or summer day camp,  or other event where the Pack charges by the individual rather than covering everything as a group expense.

These earmarked individual funds ALWAYS BELONG TO THE CO, but can also follow the scout as they move through the program within the CO. 

The clear incentive here is to not have someone stop at good enough.  A real go getter scout who sells A LOT of popcorn sees the fruits of his labor not just in being a part of the Pack and "helping the Pack go", but also in helping himself and his family defer some of the costs of his/her scouting.

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by T2Eagle