Opposition to the Quivira Council $120 Program Fee

[RememberSchiff]

The Quivira Council, which oversees troops in 30 Kansas counties, added the $120 May 1 for new scouts. All the money will go directly back to the local council. 

“They just said, ‘Here it is,’ and they didn't really tell us why,” one Wichita area scout leader, who wanted to remain anonymous, said. “They said there's a budget deficit and then we asked questions, and we didn't get any answers.”

The new fee is on top of the $75 national yearly fee. Leaders told KAKE News there is also a one time application fee to join. 

Boy Scouts have to buy their uniform, books and pay for all expenses, like food, on camping trips. One man said he thinks the fee will impact recruitment and retention.

“There are entire units comprised of underprivileged children, and that's why we're fighting, because we don't want to lose those kids,” he said.

More at sources:

https://www.kake.com/story/48866183/scouting-should-be-for-everyone-or-new-dollar100-program-fee-for-wichita-area-youth-boy-scouts-causes-concern-for-leaders-parents

https://quivira.org/program-fee-2023/

And I recommend reading scout leader petition

https://www.change.org/p/opposition-to-the-quivira-council-program-fee

Edited May 8, 2023 by RememberSchiff

[DuctTape]

😢

[dk516]

Our Council has been collecting $60 for some years now. Their reasoning was that they would no longer push FOS since it did not bring in enough $$$s but would ask the programming fee from all active council members. I am sure we'll see more of this and increasing $$$s with the decreasing number of participants. It'll be interesting to see by how much National will increase their fees at the annual meeting and what other councils will do.

[SNEScouter]

This is happening more and more.  Councils are moving towards a user-fee model because Friends of Scouting / other fundraising isn't pulling in the dollars that are needed.

[Eagle1993]

In this case, it appears the council leadership and United Way are not aligned causing UW to cut funding.   If my council lost UW funding, it would be a $78 per scout deficit.   Don't tick off the United Way without a plan to replace their funding.

[mrjohns2]

This, more than other things, will kill off Scouts. 

[fred8033]

Saw this in our council too.  Every non-profit is fundraising so much and scouting is not the darling child anymore.  Maybe 20 years from now, scouting will find it's roots and do better again.  Until then, council fees are in vogue.

IMHO, the real issue is the market does not support big council staffs anymore.  Like camera film development and fax machine sales, the market has shifted.  Time for the councils to re-think their business models.  National too.  The real question is does the individual scout get value from the $75 national and $100+ council fees which their own units are staffed by volunteers and the camp fees are separate.  

For example, maybe scouting could partner with other organizations on the annual background checks, incident reporting and youth protection.  I've had multiple years where I had three or four or five background checks run.  I always think about the wasted cost.  

I'm sure there are many, many ways to restructure the administration.

[RememberSchiff]

According to above change.org petition,

"3. A review of the Council’s recent financial statements indicate: A balanced 2023 budget without the inclusion of the program fee, the inability of Brian Nastase (CSE) to cover the cost of his own compensation through fundraising efforts. "

Between the United Way fumble and the CSE LinkedIn posts, I can understand leaders and families having questions.

[Eagle94-A1]

8 hours ago, dk516 said:

Our Council has been collecting $60 for some years now. Their reasoning was that they would no longer push FOS since it did not bring in enough $$$s but would ask the programming fee from all active council members. I am sure we'll see more of this and increasing $$$s with the decreasing number of participants.

And more and more folks will not be able to afford Scouting, including those who most need it.

8 hours ago, SNEScouter said:

Councils are moving towards a user-fee model because Friends of Scouting / other fundraising isn't pulling in the dollars that are needed.

In my neck of the woods, arrogant professionals have alienated volunteers and donors. A lot of folks have been burnt by pros. And every time national fees increase, that is less income for FOS.

7 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Don't tick off the United Way without a plan to replace their funding.

That is an understatement. And all it takes is one arrogant professional to tick off UW folks. My old boss made some rather rude, obnoxious comments about the local UW president that got back to them. Long story short, we lost all UW funding except designations.

6 hours ago, fred8033 said:

 The real question is does the individual scout get value from the $75 national and $100+ council fees which their own units are staffed by volunteers and the camp fees are separate. 

No., families do not get value. I would argue that the quality of service National provides has proportionally decreased as prices increase. Books and uniforms fall apart, training materials are leaving out so much, and concerns from the field are ignored. As for council, The office staff have provided more support to the unit than the pros. Heck I cannot tell you the last time I saw a professional at a district event, besides roundtable, or a council event in my district.

Not trying to be a negative Nellie, but I am at wit's end.

[InquisitiveScouter]

6 hours ago, fred8033 said:

The real question is does the individual scout get value from the $75 national and $100+ council fees which their own units are staffed by volunteers and the camp fees are separate.  

The real answer is "No."

[Scouterlockport]

Former pro here, I am theoretically for going to a user fee model instead of Fos. If councils were doing these four things with the funding plan.

1. All council and district events would be free or at a heavily reduced rate for units. The idea here is if you want a well funded event tell them it was already paid for with the council fee.

2. Fos goes away forever, and hopefully the field people can start developing relationships with units on a human basis instead of a fiscal one. Field Pros do have a limited amount of hours and it should be spent on unit support, and volunteer support, not Fos presentations and 40 dollar donor calls.

3. A better explanation of council finances, explains why we need to increase fees and show much of the budget goes to camps, memberships, SE Comp, staff comp etc. My former council was under 30% of the total budget for all council employees as an example. Which would be low in any field. Also I think you should be breaking down how much of the scout fees goes to each budget line. Ie 7 dollars per scout goes to camping etc.

4. Give units a way to reduce the fees by responsible fundraising, also councils have the demographics research on every zip codes. No matter how much the lower middle class and working class units try it is too hard to sell anything when you have no buyer or engaged parents. There should be reduced fees for units in the bottom third of income in councils this is something that as a low level de I was able to look up in no more then 10 mins. And a reasonable system for poor individuals in better off areas to also get some help.

5. If the fees are going to be over 80s buck per head, then we should find a way for uniforms and books to be covered in that cost. Maybe council covers the first year of books for new cubs. And the highest growth packs get free uniforms as a reward. The days of fun popcorn prizes are done, now it is all gift card anyways. Give the parents a break on something that helps the scouting experience.

Currently none of these things would be taken seriously, so there should be no council fees, but I dont think council fees would have to be bad if councils did something to show they cared about scouting families or had not spent the last 40 years torpedoing all trust between units and them.

[fred8033]

9 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

No., families do not get value. I would argue that the quality of service National provides has proportionally decreased as prices increase. Books and uniforms fall apart, training materials are leaving out so much, and concerns from the field are ignored. As for council, The office staff have provided more support to the unit than the pros. Heck I cannot tell you the last time I saw a professional at a district event, besides roundtable, or a council event in my district.

Wow !!!   I wanted to comment that books and uniforms are profit centers that are not subsidized by national fees.  

So, I was curious.  What is the price of a new handbooks from scout shop?  $23.99 for Wolf, Bear, Webelos, etc.  All ring bound.  No hard bound.  $24.99 for troop handbooks.  Our pack used to buy cubs their books.  We stopped when they were around $12 or $15.  Most cubs went without.  At $24.99 and the online scoutbook, I'd be tempted to go without for the troop scout level paper copy too.  I'd be tempted to create a nice thin, small troop level pamphlet where scouts could keep their advancement signatures.   

What is really disgusting to me is the $20 for the online scout handbook.  Online versions of this stuff should be free!  In fact, let a well structured group of volunteers manage all the scout literature.  If it works for Linux, it can definitely work for scout literature.  Then, partner with Kinkos or FedEx to print copies for individuals that really want paper.

[1980Scouter]

The SE gravy train has got to end. It is killing, especially smaller councils. My LC medium sized SE salary and benefits is well over 300k a year. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

8 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Wow !!!   I wanted to comment that books and uniforms are profit centers that are not subsidized by national fees.  

Yes, uniforms and books subsidize National, and councils. Since they are a source of revenue, I have included them in the value national gives us. My oldest bought a pair of pants that was worn maybe  6 times to meetings, and they ripped within 2 months of purchasing. I still wear ODL shorts, pants, and shirts from 1994. There is a reason why ODL shirts with all kinds of glue go almost as much as a new shirt today.

[Eagle94-A1]

43 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

  I'd be tempted to create a nice thin, small troop level pamphlet where scouts could keep their advancement signatures.   

National printed one of those a few editions back. Biggest challenge is that National keeps changing requirements, like some folks change clothes.  5 changes to Second Class requirements since 2016? That is a change ever 18 months or so

 

46 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

 In fact, let a well structured group of volunteers manage all the scout literature.  If it works for Linux, it can definitely work for scout literature.  Then, partner with Kinkos or FedEx to print copies for individuals that really want paper.

If national doesn't have control, they will not do it. Look at the template for council websites. You had some really great volunteer web designers doing local council and OA lodge webpages. And national quashed them. One web designer I know worked for a Fortune 500 company's webpage, and that council and lodge's webpages were excellent. Not anymore since National mandated specific templates.