We need to transition to a troop is a troop

[fred8033]

16 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

We are in the same boat, have 3 Packs and 7 in my old district's territory. And 1 is  a female troop. In the 7 counties of the current district, that is the only female troop in existence.

We need to transition to a troop is a troop.  Troops can choose to be boys only, girls only OR boys & girls.  IMHO, we're in 2023.  If YPT is address, this should not be an issue.

[qwazse]

10 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

We need to transition to a troop is a troop.  Troops can choose to be boys only, girls only OR boys & girls.  IMHO, we're in 2023.  If YPT is address, this should not be an issue.

@fred8033, the historic and persistent 4x rate of sexual assault upon young women vs. young men in the US, (2021 YBRS summary here) and no proof that coed groups can avert this all but guarantees that segregated units will be preferred for the near future.

[HashTagScouts]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

We need to transition to a troop is a troop.  Troops can choose to be boys only, girls only OR boys & girls.  IMHO, we're in 2023.  If YPT is address, this should not be an issue.

For me, the biggest mistake from the get go was BSA felt that there was a market to tap of X million girls, but never had a real grasp on just how many would actually choose to register with BSA. They very much overestimated how much the real demand was, and IMO felt it would become much like how we handled male Troops, that each town/CO would just be chartering a girls Troop. In our council, we only have had maybe 3 girl Troops start up that had more than double digit participants, and now just a few years on one of those is already struggling to keep 5 participants after the wunderkind older teens blew through Eagle in 2 1/2 years and aged out. The others started with 3-5, and have struggled to grow beyond those numbers. Only this year council has begun to wake to the reality that they needed to push these units to take a more broad focus and work collaboratively with Packs in other towns that have girls where a girl Troop doesn't exist to make the unit more "regional"- once that girl Troop has grown to a point where it has membership to sustain a break into multiple units, then let them do so, but until then it should be a multi-town unit. I was involved in a few introductory calls to help induce this for some Packs and Troops, and as much as we can knock National that they have a real struggle on how to recruit for Scouts BSA, these Troops were really obtuse that they cannot just rely on a feeder Pack and that older kids that are not/ever have been Cubs are not just going to walk in off the street.  

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

4 hours ago, fred8033 said:

We need to transition to a troop is a troop.  Troops can choose to be boys only, girls only OR boys & girls.  IMHO, we're in 2023.  If YPT is address, this should not be an issue.

I agree completely.

Actually, maybe I don't, I don't see a need for single-gender troops at all. It just complicates everything unnecessarily. Normal gender-mixed troops worked well in my experience, it worked well in my dad's experience, and I assume it's still working well for gen Z now. It's been working well for at least 63 years, in fact. And we all shared tents and latrines. You just need a little common-sense coordination like all gender A out of the tent so gender B can change and then switch.

[fred8033]

3 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I agree completely.

Actually, maybe I don't, I don't see a need for single-gender troops at all. It just complicates everything unnecessarily. Normal gender-mixed troops worked well in my experience, it worked well in my dad's experience, and I assume it's still working well for gen Z now. It's been working well for at least 63 years, in fact. And we all shared tents and latrines. You just need a little common-sense coordination like all gender A out of the tent so gender B can change and then switch.

I agree.  Also, it would help address borderline units where the unit has a low number of boys or a low number of girls.  Critical mass of numbers is so so important in scouting to make it a fun program.

[qwazse]

4 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

…. You just need a little common-sense coordination like all gender A out of the tent so gender B can change and then switch.

@AwakeEnergyScouter, you and your dad were in an organization that did not face staggering litigation for damages when someone from gender A assaulted someone from gender B.

I discussed the BSA’s legal situation with several Scandinavian scouters, and they couldn’t imagine that the staggering scenario that we face would happen to any organization in their country.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

@AwakeEnergyScouter, you and your dad were in an organization that did not face staggering litigation for damages when someone from gender A assaulted someone from gender B.

I discussed the BSA’s legal situation with several Scandinavian scouters, and they couldn’t imagine that the staggering scenario that we face would happen to any organization in their country.

I'm definitely not a lawyer, so maybe I don't understand the liability problem. I also haven't followed the news about the lawsuit and bankruptcy as closely as I see that some have, so maybe I missed something there too.

I thought what was so disgusting with the BSA sexual abuse was that it was pedophilia by leaders that was repeatedly and systematically swept under the carpet by the organization. I haven't picked up on any systematic issues with male scouts assaulting female scouts - has that been a problem for you also? If so, I can see needing to tread gingerly for the sake of PR on that as well.

PR isn't liability, though, so I think I need an explainer of why simplifying the troop situation would be a legal liability. YPT already imposes much more gender separation than we had, so it's not obvious to me how the possibility that American men are just rapier and/or touchier than Nordic men hasn't already been considered. 

[PACAN]

@AwakeEnergyScouter

Where was/is your scouting experience where you had mixed gender troops?

I'm sure RichardB could explain the legal reasons the BSA chose to have gender separate troops as the author of the Guide to Safe Scouting

This bankruptcy the BSA has gone through has required many YP changes for summer camping and just recently the change that all leaders must be in a paid BSA position.

 

[skeptic]

On 5/3/2023 at 5:08 PM, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I'm definitely not a lawyer, so maybe I don't understand the liability problem. I also haven't followed the news about the lawsuit and bankruptcy as closely as I see that some have, so maybe I missed something there too.

I thought what was so disgusting with the BSA sexual abuse was that it was pedophilia by leaders that was repeatedly and systematically swept under the carpet by the organization. I haven't picked up on any systematic issues with male scouts assaulting female scouts - has that been a problem for you also? If so, I can see needing to tread gingerly for the sake of PR on that as well.

PR isn't liability, though, so I think I need an explainer of why simplifying the troop situation would be a legal liability. YPT already imposes much more gender separation than we had, so it's not obvious to me how the possibility that American men are just rapier and/or touchier than Nordic men hasn't already been considered. 

IMHO it is our screwed up legal system that allows lawyers to cause issues where there are none, or they are minor.  Far too many ridiculous monetary payouts for things that are mostly part of the larger human race.  The issue we face(d) likely would never have even gone to court in much of the world, and our media just makes it worse by their skewed focus on sensationalism.  

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

IMHO it is our screwed up legal system that allows lawyers to cause issues where there are none, or they are minor.  Far too many ridiculous monetary payouts for things that are mostly part of the larger human race.  The issue we face(d) likely would never have even gone to court in much of the world, and our media just makes it worse by their skewed focus on sensationalism.  

 

We def need some common sense tort reform

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

2 hours ago, PACAN said:

Where was/is your scouting experience where you had mixed gender troops?

@PACAN in Sweden. I was a regular scout with Svenska Scoutförbundet, the Swedish Scout Association, in the 90s. It's aligned both with WOSM and WAGGS. Now it's been renamed what everyone has always called it anyway, "the Scouts" (Scouterna).

Gender-segregated scouting was so long ago for us that I read 'girl scouts' and 'boy scouts' with that hyper-cheery 1950s documentary narrator voice in my head. It's just not a thing anymore, or so it feels like to me. And it's hardly just us, of course. When we were selling popcorn door to door, one family scrambled to get their Belgian exchange student who wanted to see an authentic girl scout. (Sadly for her, of course, we were just ordinary scouts.) I get it. It's exotic when it's something you've only seen on TV. 

So, I don't mean to be over the top here, it's just very difficult for me to understand why something that's unremarkable and normal and generations have been happy with would be so complicated and difficult to do somewhere else with a fairly similar culture. There are reasons I suppose, I'm just not very good at guessing and/or understanding them. In fact, I don't get why GSUSA and BSA don't just merge. I guess they's some kind of animosity there? But to me it seems like even more inefficiency to have two NSOs instead of one. Way easier to get both scouts and leaders into more active and useful groups.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

@PACAN in Sweden. I was a regular scout with Svenska Scoutförbundet, the Swedish Scout Association, in the 90s. It's aligned both with WOSM and WAGGS. Now it's been renamed what everyone has always called it anyway, "the Scouts" (Scouterna).

Gender-segregated scouting was so long ago for us that I read 'girl scouts' and 'boy scouts' with that hyper-cheery 1950s documentary narrator voice in my head. It's just not a thing anymore, or so it feels like to me. And it's hardly just us, of course. When we were selling popcorn door to door, one family scrambled to get their Belgian exchange student who wanted to see an authentic girl scout. (Sadly for her, of course, we were just ordinary scouts.) I get it. It's exotic when it's something you've only seen on TV. 

So, I don't mean to be over the top here, it's just very difficult for me to understand why something that's unremarkable and normal and generations have been happy with would be so complicated and difficult to do somewhere else with a fairly similar culture. There are reasons I suppose, I'm just not very good at guessing and/or understanding them. In fact, I don't get why GSUSA and BSA don't just merge. I guess they's some kind of animosity there? But to me it seems like even more inefficiency to have two NSOs instead of one. Way easier to get both scouts and leaders into more active and useful groups.

 

Because sexual mores are very different here in the US.  I remember my time in Sweden, when I had discussions with many Swedes about views on sex.  Very different.  Still....

[qwazse]

14 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Because sexual mores are very different here in the US.  I remember my time in Sweden, when I had discussions with many Swedes about views on sex.  Very different.  Still....

I didn’t want to imply that liability for youth heterosexual assault (or even unwanted consensual relations) was the sole mover.

There is also a sincere belief among Americans that youth do better in a unisex environment. Exactly how they do better is an open question. The developmental psychology of it all really doesn’t matter. Parents do vote with their feet. The fastest growing scouting organizations in the world are generally unisex. The fastest shrinking division in BSA, Venturing, was predominantly co-ed. Our execs see England and Sweden as either 1) an anomaly or 2) a long term strategy that  won’t recoup the boys lost for decades.

Lacking a popular elected leader to insist that things change, in the eyes of BSA sees turning fully coed as catering to the few at the expense of the many.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

37 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Because sexual mores are very different here in the US. 

I don't really understand what that has to do with sexual assault, or with scouting. 

Or are you saying that it's not just a concern about scouts getting sexually harassed or assaulted, it's that and/or a concern that scouts will have sex while scouting?

If the latter, I can report that when the whole patrol sleeps in a single tent there's nothing going on 😂

It becomes a bit like workplace romances, you have to think about what happens when you break up/stop sleeping together. Could make patrol outings very awkward if your ex is in the patrol too! Nobody in my troop ever had a relationship with anyone else in the troop, and at least for some I know that this exactly was the reasoning. 

You're right though, Americans scandalize very easily. If that's a big part of the reason then I will probably never emotionally understand, like I will never emotionally understand the problem with bikinis on beaches. It's hard to get all worked up about something that feels very ordinary.

[Wyobkr]

6 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I don't really understand what that has to do with sexual assault, or with scouting. 

Or are you saying that it's not just a concern about scouts getting sexually harassed or assaulted, it's that and/or a concern that scouts will have sex while scouting?

If the latter, I can report that when the whole patrol sleeps in a single tent there's nothing going on 😂

It becomes a bit like workplace romances, you have to think about what happens when you break up/stop sleeping together. Could make patrol outings very awkward if your ex is in the patrol too! Nobody in my troop ever had a relationship with anyone else in the troop, and at least for some I know that this exactly was the reasoning. 

You're right though, Americans scandalize very easily. If that's a big part of the reason then I will probably never emotionally understand, like I will never emotionally understand the problem with bikinis on beaches. It's hard to get all worked up about something that feels very ordinary.

I attended NYLT course directors conference in 2021 and that was the fall that the tone of the training was decidely different.  New rules regarding formation of patrols, absolutely no female youth to be in same patrol as male youth (remember perhaps that just the year before mixing sexes was encouraged for "diversity").   Had to have minimum number of female youth to have a patrol and if any youth female on course then had to be separate troop with at least 2 female youth staff and a female Scoutmaster and Asst. Scoutmaster.  Why, we asked?  Why the big change?  The answer was 42 reported youth on youth sexual assaults on NYLT courses.  That was just on NYLT courses, not other scouting activities.  Of course the number of reported sexual assaults are generally much lower than total number that occur.  If you want to think about liability with mixed gender units, then ponder how you defend yourself in court with a civil suit for not providing full time, around the clock supervision on outings and meetings.  It was a very somber discussion at the course director's conference and no deviations allowed or you risk not being defended by BSA in court.  No doubt there is also assault occurring in single sex units, and all of the liability is frightening.