CPR and the First Aid Merit Badge

[OaklandAndy]

"First aid, WFA, CPR/AED must be taught by instructors currently trained by a nationally certified provider such as the American Red Cross, American Heart Association, Emergency Care and Safety Institute, or American Safety and Health Institute." - Guide to Safe Scouting

"CPR instruction, wherever it is required, must be taught by people currently trained as CPR instructors by a nationally certified provider, such as the American Red Cross, the Emergency Care and Safety Institute, or the American Heart Association. "- Guide to Advancement

So I interpret the G2SS as anyone who holds a CPR/AED card can teach the CPR portion in the First Aid MB, and in G2A I read it as they must be a CPR Instructor, not just someone who holds a card (such as a provider). Thoughts? 

 

[mrjohns2]

They both say instructors. I guess the first could be a lower case i instructor as in anyone instructing as long as they just completed the end user class. I read it as they both have to be certified instructors. 

[DuctTape]

I do not see a discrepancy. Although both are worded slightly differently, they require the person to be a trained instructor. Which is NOT synonymous with a person trained in CPR who is instructing. 

[OaklandAndy]

I feel like I'm overthinking this. Considering the importance of the MB, I needed other's opinions. 

 

[sierracharliescouter]

The First Aid MB does not result in a Scout being certified to perform CPR. It is more of a "CPR awareness" training, so it doesn't require a certified instructor.

The reality is, the First Aid MB is often taught to 11-12 year olds, who would not have the strength to perform CPR on an adult for any significant length of time.

Note, there is a difference in the requirements for the training between the First Aid MB and the Lifesaving MB. The First Aid MB is as I described above, the Livesaving MB requires the CPR instruction to be given by an certified, trained CPR instructor.

Edited May 2, 2023 by sierracharliescouter

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, sierracharliescouter said:

The First Aid MB does not result in a Scout being certified to perform CPR. It is more of a "CPR awareness" training, so it doesn't require a certified instructor.

This seems inconsistent with G2A. It doesn’t say CPR certification, but just CPR wherever it is required. That is all inclusive - ranks, MBs, etc. 

[sierracharliescouter]

5 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

This seems inconsistent with G2A. It doesn’t say CPR certification, but just CPR wherever it is required. That is all inclusive - ranks, MBs, etc. 

I've largely given up on dealing with inconsistencies in BSA policies. If BSA's lawyers don't care enough to force folks to check for stuff like this, I'm not going to be the one to tell them.

As an MB instructor, I'd be going with the exact language in the MB handbook, because that is "testing to the standard". If G2A is inconsistent with that, oh well. Neither MB results in the scout having a formal CPR certification. Frankly, I think the Lifesaving MB should have a prerequisite of having formal CPR/First Aid training.

[SSScout]

IF ( I say "if")  you can find a place/organization that will sponsor CPR/AED training by the above named organizations, do so.  Arrange to collect and pay their fee, it will be worth it for the possibilities involved.  

Since I was a Scout, many moon ago, I have been taught and learned no fewer than 5 , maybe six, different techniques. From Back Pressure Arm Lift to  mouth to mouth to CPR (do you know what that stands for?).... I have only been called upon to attempt it once. Another time.....

Not a few years ago, my son (Eagle, now off on his adult own) raised rabbits in 4H. The 4H Rabbit Barn at the county fair was easily proven one of the most popular exhibits.  Because of my allergies, I could not spend too much time in the barn, but I helped out by sitting at the entrance, in the (more or less) fresh air and welcomed folks, answered questions.  One bright sunny day, I was so established, when a man came walking down the Fair Ave. , stopped in front of me, pointed at me and declared: "YOU'RE SSSCOUT ! "  I replied, " yes , that's right" (I'm  thinking, ,, who is this guy??)  He says, "YOU SAVED MY LIFE ! !"  I said,  "I'm glad !"  (? ?).  He then explains that some years ago, he had attended a CPR/AED class that I had arranged at the church our Scout Troop was sponsored by. At that class, the instructor had talked about the possible signs of heart trouble, incipient heart attack, he had recognized some of those signs, and had gone to his doctor and 4 days after the CPR class had had quadruple bypass surgery.  I stood up, we shook hands, he smiled, I invited him in to see the rabbits, and I still don't know his name.

Nor do I need to. 

I think it's time to arrange another couple of classes.... 

Edited May 2, 2023 by SSScout

[MikeS72]

2 hours ago, SSScout said:

IF ( I say "if")  you can find a place/organization that will sponsor CPR/AED training by the above named organizations, do so

As a long time Red Cross Instructor, I would encourage everyone to check with their local council, as BSA has an affiliation agreement with the Red Cross and many councils have ARC Instructors available to teach and certify people within the scouting community.

[mrjohns2]

3 hours ago, sierracharliescouter said:

I've largely given up on dealing with inconsistencies in BSA policies.

I‘m not saying the policy is inconsistent, I’m saying your interpretation is not consistent with the advancement policy. This time, it isn’t the BSA. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

Because of the exorbitant cost (IMO) of most providers, I took a trip to Philmont and became a Wilderness First Aid Instructor for Emergency Care and Safety Institute, through the course at the Philmont Training Center.  Took the family with (four of us, total), and it was a great "vacation."  (Highly recommend that to everyone.  PTC has some great courses.)

Now, I am certified to teach WFA, FA, and CPR/AED.  I did have to lay out an investment in course materials and training aids... several thousand, in fact. 

I charge less than half of what any provider charges, and, over the years, the course fees have more than paid for the CPR manikins, AED trainer and supplies, and approved course materials.

I teach about one class every two months.  (Have to teach two classes per year to remain current.) For each class, I say the training (my time) is free, but the digital certificate you have to pay for 😜 

Lots of Scouts just opt for the training, to fulfill requirements for badges.  As they get older and land jobs, many pay the nominal fee to get the certificate.  Adults all get the certificates...

[sierracharliescouter]

20 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I‘m not saying the policy is inconsistent, I’m saying your interpretation is not consistent with the advancement policy. This time, it isn’t the BSA. 

The advancement policy isn't consistent with the advancement requirements for MB. It absolutely is the BSA. Strictly speaking, as an MB counselor I can't force a scout getting the First Aid MB to go to a certified instructor for CPR training, because that is beyond the requirements stated in the handbook. We expressly cannot force a scout to do more than what is required. If BSA were to require only certified CPR instructors to be First Aid MBCs, they would lose most of those MBCs. FWIW, I've been current in First Aid/CPR training continuously for over 35 years, and WFA trained for 4 years.

As a practical matter, I have scouts for the First Aid MB watch a "how to" video on CPR produced by ARC on YouTube. Since I would assume the video content was reviewed by someone certified to teach CPR, that should count as "instruction given by a certified instructor" for the purpose of G2A.

[mrjohns2]

2 hours ago, sierracharliescouter said:

The advancement policy isn't consistent with the advancement requirements for MB. 

Well, the MB pamphlet does say you have to learn it from a certified instructor: “Learning CPR requires careful instruction from a certified teacher. Perhaps you can practice CPR at Scout meetings. The American Red Cross, American Heart Association, and Emergency Care and Safety Institute offer classes, too. Your Scout leaders can help you find training to learn this lifesaving skill.”

[DuctTape]

mB counselors sign off on completion of the requirements whilst providing their expertise, experience and the most important, adult association. They might not be able to be the person whom the scout recieves the direct instruction.

In this case, if the mB counselor is not a certified instructor in CPR/AED then the mB counselor can sign off on the requirement when the scout recieves the instruction from a certified instructor who does not have to be a mB counselor.

The scout may have recieved the instruction during health class at school, or as part of a sports team, or many other venues including the mB counselor hosting a certified instructor.

As a mB counselor for other badges, I often sign off on requirements which were completed this way. I often ask the scouts about these experiences, what the learned the most, whether they recommend these venues , etc...

These discussions are not additional requirements only a discussion between the counselor and scout. If a scout does not want to discuss it, I of course provide the signature for completing the requirement as written.

I also have the similar discussion with them when I was the person who provided the instruction. I am certain to let them know upfront that the purpose of the discussion is for ME to improve as a mB counselor and I am seeking to learn from them. 

I view the number one job of the mB counselor is to fulfill the adult association method, and for me the main lesson I want my scouts to see in me is that of personal growth, lifelong learning and always seeking to improve.

[RememberSchiff]

15 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

I view the number one job of the mB counselor is to fulfill the adult association method, and for me the main lesson I want my scouts to see in me is that of personal growth, lifelong learning and always seeking to improve.

Excellent!