Is scouting still fun? Post Bankruptcy

[fred8033]

47 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

This discussion will ultimately include things like ...

I had an interesting experience yesterday.  I have a part-time weekend job.  One of my co-worker is a 71 years old retired cop.  Great guy.  ... I somehow referenced scouting and he asked "oh, you were in scouting?"  I briefly explained.  I asked if he was in scouting.  His comment was ... without using "only" ... Yes.  He made it to Life Scout, but that was back when scouting was fun.  ... I really found that interesting.  Unprompted, his first comment was about that scouting was not fun anymore.

[Eagle94-A1]

18 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

 Unprompted, his first comment was about that scouting was not fun anymore.

Understatement of the year.  There are so many rules, regulations, and hoops that have to be gone through, that folks are becoming disgusted. Look at the new rule on Cub Scout pack camping limiting to 1 night on their own, yet can do multiple if a district/council function. No rational was given for this, even when multiple people and on multiple websites, and even councils, have asked why the new rule is being implemented.

The rule that limits 18-20 year olds in regards to what they can do, yet also demands that they follow all YP guidelines nonetheless, is a major concern for me as I have lost extremely knowledgeable and experienced Eagles because they do not see any value in continuing as Scouters and having to give up friends. In some cases they would not be able to associate with school mates and family members because of the new YP rules. In my long history with Scouts, Those 18-20 year olds are better Scouters with more knowledge, skills, abilities, and expereince than 98% of the new crossed over Cub Scout leaders. Heck I had Eagles under and over 18 help teach ITOLS back in the day.

 

1 hour ago, Cburkhardt said:

This discussion will ultimately include things like mergers, local council bankruptcies and significant local and national changes (many positive) in the program and its management as a direct or indirect result of the bankruptcy. 

One of the not so positive national changes is the increase in fees, and allowing councils to match, them. And don't tell me Scouting is cheaper than Sports. I know that. My kids are involved in Scouts Because we cannot afford sports. Scouting is slowly becoming out of reach for folks. Add council fees, and it is ridiculous. 

And before you mention fundraising, we do it and 2/3 of the troop is on some type of assistance. The price is slowly becoming cost prohibitive to the folks that most need it.

[clbkbx]

45 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

71 years old retired cop

I wouldn't put too much on feedback from someone that hasn't been part of Scouting for at least 50 years. It's been half that for me and I couldn't tell if you if was fun anymore. 

The proof will be in the pudding: does Scouting thrive compared to today's alternatives. 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

54 minutes ago, clbkbx said:

The proof will be in the pudding: does Scouting thrive compared to today's alternatives. 

There are waiting lists to join Scouting in Sweden after the pandemic, and interest in getting out in nature rose here too. The base interest is there. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/monicahoughton/2018/04/16/why-camping-is-rising-in-popularity-especially-among-millennials/?sh=67c1885916c0

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/fresh-data-indicates-camping-interest-to-remain-high-in-2021-301273611.html

https://www.sunset.com/travel/wild-lands/interest-in-camping-is-at-an-all-time-high-following-covid-19-outbreak

My scout said they bragged about going camping all day when they came out to car pickup the last time we went camping. Their class will go on an "outdoor education" trip that sounds an awful lot like scouting (pitch a tent, cook, 5-mile hike) in fourth grade. We have trendy eateries with names like "The Camp" (main building is a gutted Airstream) and "The Outpost" in town.

The question is, do parents who weren't scouts themselves think of us as a good guide to getting into outdoor life? We have the opportunity to do what we do best here. Let's take it.

[Eagle1993]

29 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

There are waiting lists to join Scouting in Sweden after the pandemic, and interest in getting out in nature rose here too. The base interest is there. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/monicahoughton/2018/04/16/why-camping-is-rising-in-popularity-especially-among-millennials/?sh=67c1885916c0

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/fresh-data-indicates-camping-interest-to-remain-high-in-2021-301273611.html

https://www.sunset.com/travel/wild-lands/interest-in-camping-is-at-an-all-time-high-following-covid-19-outbreak

My scout said they bragged about going camping all day when they came out to car pickup the last time we went camping. Their class will go on an "outdoor education" trip that sounds an awful lot like scouting (pitch a tent, cook, 5-mile hike) in fourth grade. We have trendy eateries with names like "The Camp" (main building is a gutted Airstream) and "The Outpost" in town.

The question is, do parents who weren't scouts themselves think of us as a good guide to getting into outdoor life? We have the opportunity to do what we do best here. Let's take it.

Camping, hiking, etc. are definitely fun.  I just got back from our mountain bike camping trip and the scouts had a blast.  Do you know what doesn't look like a blast?  Days and days of merit badge classes to complete the required merit badges for Eagle or talking about cooking/camping/etc. vs actually doing it.  Uniforms that are designed for ceremonies but not actively working in cold or hot weather.  Kicking kids out before/during their senior year of high school as they magically become an adult before their friends.  I can go on.

There is potential and a lot of scouting is fun, but I think there are also considerable headwinds in BSA.

[DuctTape]

Fun is determined by the Patrol; both in their analysis of the activities and the choice of them. If a patrol says they aren't having fun, then they need the encouragement, assistance and authority to choose more fun activities. 

Troop, District, Council and National all need to support the Patrol in words and deeds. 

Regarding cost, the problem most have is that little/none of the $ to national or to council is viewed as benefitting the individual scouts and patrols. They do not see the value of that sunk cost, or the value is not commensurate with said cost.

[5thGenTexan]

Meh...  Might be my depression or just burned out, but camping isn't all that fun.

I am old. 🙃Getting up and down and general tasks in a tent is personally a grim undertaking.  After dinner is done and its dark I dont know what to do with myself until my mind finally falls asleep at midnight or so.  Coupled with Scouts that want to just play.  They complain when they have to wake up (and its takes some of them a long time), they complain when they have to cook, they complain when they have to clean up, they complain when they have to pack up and leave.  A LOT of complaining and not much interest in the Scout part at all.  I just dont want to go anymore.

[Scouterlockport]

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

Regarding cost, the problem most have is that little/none of the $ to national or to council is viewed as benefitting the individual scouts and patrols. They do not see the value of that sunk cost, or the value is not commensurate with said cost.

This is the problem with the funding of councils, the funds that go to keeping camps running and maybe the salary of a DE (in theory) none of the fees help troops with their running of their units. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

Troop, District, Council and National all need to support the Patrol in words and deeds. 

But, @DuctTape , it is just so much easier if we all just do the same things together!!!  Same meals, same activities, same campsite, same trail, same badges, same skills, etc...  LOL

Can't tell you how many times I have heard that...

When was the last time you saw a summer camp that was patrol oriented?  I mean, really patrol oriented?

 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

Regarding cost, the problem most have is that little/none of the $ to national or to council is viewed as benefitting the individual scouts and patrols. They do not see the value of that sunk cost, or the value is not commensurate with said cost.

Regarding national, I have seen National ignore volunteers, and not only the unit serving Scouters, but big, national level ones. Anyone remember the national Philmont Committee finding out about the mortgage AFTER the fact, the Cub Scout 411 Committee that had the program they created changes about 18 month into it without any input, or the national Sea Scout commodore, finding out that national was looking at dropping Sea Scouting's age limit to 18 when parts of the CHURCHILL REPORT got leaked?

What is national good for? Training has been dumbed down. Current uniforms are made of crappy material to the point that vintage uniforms with tons of glue on them go for almost a new shirt, and a vintage shirt without glue can cost as much as a new shirt. My oldest had a pair of new pants split with less than 2 months of wear on them. I am still wearing ODL pants and short that are over 20 years old. And they had lots of wear as I spent 6 summers on camp staff, and worked for BSA for a total of 5 years. My Gen 1 Switchbacks look older than my ODL pants due to the fading.

17 minutes ago, Scouterlockport said:

This is the problem with the funding of councils, the funds that go to keeping camps running and maybe the salary of a DE (in theory) none of the fees help troops with their running of their units. 

My council sold 2 camps purely for the money. One camp was subsidizing the other two camp until they shut down the camp for 9 months. When the ranger died, Volunteers stepped up to the plate and took care of one camp. Heck the council moved all the equipment at the camp, including folks personal equipment that they left at the camp so they would not have to transport it back and forth, while it was still in use. As for the camp they are trying to build up, there are so many issues with it, that, many folks will not go to it, including former staffers. And when folks try to fix matters, they get run off.

 

9 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

When was the last time you saw a summer camp that was patrol oriented?  I mean, really patrol oriented?

When my troop did summer camp in 2020 and we created our own program. Scouts had an absolute blast, but will not do another one because of the lack of MBs offered. Sadly one of my adults agrees with them. When I proposed doing a HA week on the AT to cut down on summer camp costs, even though that is something the Scouts wanted to do, the lack of MBs was the driving point. And my CC said it would be fun, but a waste of a summer. Sadly the focus on advancement and Eagle is causing folks to forget the fun and adventure.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Eagle94-A1

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

When my troop did summer camp in 2020 and we created our own program. Scouts had an absolute blast, but will not do another one because of the lack of MBs offered. Sadly one of my adults agrees with them. When I proposed doing a HA week on the AT to cut down on summer camp costs, even though that is something the Scouts wanted to do, the lack of MBs was the driving point. And my CC said it would be fun, but a waste of a summer. Sadly the focus on advancement and Eagle is causing folks to forget the fun and adventure.

I hear this, too, and it baffles me.  Realistically, 21 MB's is not difficult over a seven year span, if starting from cross-over.

When BSA allowed young ladies to join and pursue Eagle, my daughter took the challenge.  She asked me for advice on how to map out the program.  We sat down and did that, looking at a timeline to complete it in the 19 months minimum required.  She earned exactly 21 MB's, and completed the program in about 21 months, and still felt "rushed" in her words.  (Of course, she had to wait for the Inaugural Class to be recognized at the 24 month mark after joining Scouts, BSA.)  She never attended Summer Camp in BSA as a camper.  She did work one summer as staff.  Went to four years of Summer Camp as a Girl Scout.  Overall, though, she enjoyed the process (especially doing Automotive Maintenance MB with dear old Dad!)

Dear Eagle Scout son will turn 18 this month.  Has 45 MB's, and has done seven years of Summer Camp.  He only did three "Eagle-requireds" at Summer Camp:  First Aid (which I had to go over with him again because he didn't really do the requirements at camp), Swimming, and Environmental Science.   These last three years of camp were his favorite.  Going to camp, hanging out with friends, having free time to chill in Hammock Hollow (that's what they called their Patrol's hammock encampment 😜), taking only one or two badges each summer.  (of things that he really wanted to do... SCUBA, Shotgun Shooting, Wilderness Survival, Small-boat Sailing, etc.)  He said these last few years have been the best. 

Too many people focus on the destination, rather than the journey to get there.

https://mindfulambition.net/journey-over-destination/

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter
corrected timelines

[MattR]

Is scouting still fun? Post Bankruptcy

My answer to that is that in my troop, this past weekend at a camporee, absolutely. The teamwork and leadership of the scouts was outstanding and the program put on by one of the other troops was just great. The theme was pirates and our patrol won because of excellent enthusiasm and, thinking way outside the box, they gambled all their dubloons with the scout running one of the stations and won.

The older scouts decided they wanted to have fun that included the younger scouts and the result was magic. The adults ate well, took naps and read their books.

Most of the scouts I know that are focused on eagle when they're young are those with parents that push it. Those parents see eagle as worth more than confidence, teamwork, problem solving and other skills learned doing scouts.

[Jameson76]

Is Scouting Fun - depends on how the unit is run.  Is it a game with a purpose?  Yes there are many forms, impediments, and potential oversight challenges, but actually the GTSS leaves open many many items.

For our unit we eschew district and council events, they are waaay to much not fun.  When you get the 40 page PDF and have a 45 minute safety briefing at the leader meeting can be trouble.  Someone asked if one of us should step in and help plan, our feedback was life it to short, there are some ingrained folks that run those so better to move on to more fun things.

One headwind we are seeing is parents that want WEB III or more AOL plan for the Scouts that crossover into troops.  Keep them together in their dens, need to have advancement centric outings, don't be too challenging, family type outings, MB outings.  In their view Scouting is not about fun but about what can their Scout materially (ranks etc) get from the program.  Make sure all events are geared toward 5th and 6th grade, don't worry about the older scouts.  

Another troop works that way, and more power to them, but they have a high attrition as Scouts age, and by 8th grade, hard to force youth the participate if they do not want to.

Scouting can be fun, but it can also become boring if the SCOUTS are not planning the outing and events.  If they are not directing what is going one.  Correct you cannot indulge everything they bring forth (time and money can be an issue) but if you give them some guide rails it definitely becomes their program.  The leaders can work closely and give input, challenge as needed, but then it becomes fun.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Jameson76

[qwazse]

Based on the smiles I see every week, it’s still fun.

Personally, I always found forestalling death to be intrinsically fun.

Being a scouter is more demanding, perhaps. But, I was close to my kids’ soccer coaches, and it was no piece of cake for them either. Teaching Sunday school requires more paperwork than it used to.

I finally got my brother to come to an orienteering club event with me. Minimum paperwork. No responsibilities except to clock in at finish at the allotted time, which we didn’t. The terrain beat on us something fierce. We even missed a turn on the two hour ride home, twice! I’m still sore in parts. His after action review: it was fun. I thought: my SM made me have this kind of fun and I’m still at it.

Monday night, a couple of boys came to me begging to get an orienteering course in soon. Our SM had one prepared so I called him over and he offered to his Thursday PM and Saturday AM. Two generations later … still fun.