Council Mergers/Reductions Post Bankruptcy

[SiouxRanger]

@Cburkhardtyou seem to have deep involvement in council level operations and successfully so.

My involvement with my council has been at the District level, but also as a member of the Council Board, and as an attorney, I see things in much greater legal depth than most folks.

On 9/14/2023 at 10:48 AM, Cburkhardt said:

The principal challenge for the four predecessor councils was an inability or unwillingness to adequately govern and manage Scouting. 

I just ask who was responsible for "adequately govern and manage Scouting?

On 9/14/2023 at 10:48 AM, Cburkhardt said:

The principal challenge for the four predecessor councils was an inability or unwillingness to adequately govern and manage Scouting. 

And who failed in that?

In my Council, volunteers are relegated to ministerial work.

On 9/14/2023 at 10:48 AM, Cburkhardt said:

This probably all sounds a bit simple.  That's because the challenges and solutions were very apparent.

This an indictment of the ability and capacity of the "Professional Scouters" as you, a non-professional scouter, not trained by National to manage a Council, see the inadequate management of FOUR NATIONALLY CHARTERED COUNCILS as INADEQUATE.

"Very apparent," and so, why so?

So, FOUR FAILED Nationally commissioned Scout Executives. Hmm. (Now, arguably only one or two of the four were "Failed" but can one thank National for being only one-quarter or half right?

And I find it very disturbing that an amateur, non-professional has to identify the gross operational failures of four Nationally chartered Councils and establish a modicum of operational normalcy.

And all to so no denigration of @churkbardt 's role-she/he fixed a mess…

And so, I suspect have so many of us others…

[Cburkhardt]

On 9/19/2023 at 2:24 PM, SiouxRanger said:

I just ask who was responsible for "adequately govern and manage Scouting?

When a Council becomes fundamentally dysfunctional, it is because the council board is not doing its job.  This is usually coupled with professional leadership that either overly-dominates the board or is incapable of inspiring its volunteers to fully embrace their board roles.

The volunteer Board Chair (formerly known as "Council President") and other principal volunteer leaders are responsible to set policies and priorities for the operation of Scouting within a geographic territory.  The Scout Executive is paid by and reports to them and not the other way around.  Board members who allow themselves to be relegated to only program implementation or menial tasks are simply not the right kind of people to serve.  We need strong minded and objective individuals who have local and informed judgement -- and they should be the ones setting the critical budget, property, fiscal, fundraising and program prioritization policies.  They should exercise their fiduciary duties on behalf of the youth who benefit and not be concerned about being popular or receiving awards.

The examples of dysfunctional property and membership circumstances I provided above could easily have been avoided if board members had been willing to recognize and transparently deal with the obvious -- plummeting membership, excessive and underutilized properties, unproductive professionals and uncontrolled spending or debt.  Professionals are responsible to implement the policies of the local board in a manner consistent with the rules and regulations of the BSA.  They should neither dominate boards nor take the entire blame for everything going wrong in a council.  The ineffective ones should be counseled to success or discharged if unable to perform.

When I finished my role as the council president who worked with our board and professionals to implement the merger and correct dysfunction, I received no award or even a note of thanks from those who benefitted from my work.  This did not disturb me, because it was the satisfaction of serving effectively that was my reward.  I am no hero or example of the perfect board member -- but we do need volunteer leaders who are capable and willing to make the hard calls and who do not bring narrow or rigid thinking.   Now is the right time for interested volunteers to influence who will serve on your 2024 council executive boards.  Chartered Organization Representatives have the responsibility and right to be involved.  

[RememberSchiff]

1 hour ago, Cburkhardt said:

When a Council becomes fundamentally dysfunctional, it is because the council board is not doing its job.  This is usually coupled with professional leadership that either overly-dominates the board or is incapable of inspiring its volunteers to fully embrace their board roles.

,,,

Now is the right time for interested volunteers to influence who will serve on your 2024 council executive boards.  Chartered Organization Representatives have the responsibility and right to be involved.  

IMHO, Council executives and other professionals should NOT be members of the Executive Board which oversees them.

My $0.02,

[vol_scouter]

40 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMHO, Council executives and other professionals should NOT be members of the Executive Board which oversees them.

My $0.02,

They are not a part of the EC or EB though the SE attends all meetings and makes recommendations to the Nominating committee.  So the SE can certainly color the EC and EB make up.  A good EC and EB should have a balance of successful business people to manage the fiduciary need of the council along with some active Scouters who convey the programmatic needs of the council.  Like any corporation, the SE (like a CEO) can disguise problems so the EC and EB need to be observant and diligent.

[RememberSchiff]

49 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

They are not a part of the EC or EB though the SE attends all meetings...

Easy enough to check, let's see the EB and EC member list of local councils and National.

[Eagle94-A1]

@Cburkhardt,

You may not realize it, but there are ways for SEs, and to a lesser extent DEs, to manipulate who is, and is not, on a district committee, council executive committee, or council executive board. When I was a DE, my SE and DFS had an in-council training session on how to get the folks we want onto those committees. They essentially said we should get folks who will shut up and do what we tell them to do without question.

One of the reasons why I was in trouble with them is because I refused to replace some "critics" with "yes men." I wanted the best folks for the job to be on my district committee, and didn't mind having folks coming up with alternatives, especially since these alternatives 95% of the time had better results than what I was being told to do. They couldn't fire me because I was meeting my goals, and they had no excuse todo so. But they could make my life miserable, which is what they did.

The way Pros control who is on the committees and boards is via the nominations committee. They get folks who are yes men on those committees to select other yes men for the various positions.

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

@Cburkhardt,

You may not realize it, but there are ways for SEs, and to a lesser extent DEs, to manipulate who is, and is not, on a district committee, council executive committee, or council executive board. When I was a DE, my SE and DFS had an in-council training session on how to get the folks we want onto those committees. They essentially said we should get folks who will shut up and do what we tell them to do without question.

One of the reasons why I was in trouble with them is because I refused to replace some "critics" with "yes men." I wanted the best folks for the job to be on my district committee, and didn't mind having folks coming up with alternatives, especially since these alternatives 95% of the time had better results than what I was being told to do. They couldn't fire me because I was meeting my goals, and they had no excuse todo so. But they could make my life miserable, which is what they did.

The way Pros control who is on the committees and boards is via the nominations committee. They get folks who are yes men on those committees to select other yes men for the various positions.

"...The one part which I can claim as mine towards promoting the Movement is that I have been lucky enough to find you men and women to form a group of the right stamp who can be relied upon to carry it on to its goal. You will do well to keep your eyes open, in your turn, for worthy successors to who you can, with confidence, hand on the torch. Don't let it become a salaried organization: keep it a voluntary movement of patriotic service." - BP

[Eagle94-A1]

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

"...The one part which I can claim as mine towards promoting the Movement is that I have been lucky enough to find you men and women to form a group of the right stamp who can be relied upon to carry it on to its goal. You will do well to keep your eyes open, in your turn, for worthy successors to who you can, with confidence, hand on the torch. Don't let it become a salaried organization: keep it a voluntary movement of patriotic service." - BP

I admit, I see the necessity of having a SMALL (major emphasis) professional corps. UK is quite successful with a small cadre of pros. But BSA's overbloated bureaucracy is wasteful IMHO. Even councils can be wasteful. One council I know of has 3 individuals working one district, yet the other two have vacancies, and even when one was filled, the pro was not visible.

[Cburkhardt]

6 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

You may not realize it, but there are ways for SEs, and to a lesser extent DEs, to manipulate who is, and is not, on a district committee, council executive committee, or council executive board.

When I serve on a council board or district committee, I want the senior responsible executive present to report on activities and be questioned on critical projects.  The CEO of a company is always present at board meetings and is normally a member.  Attendance of a paid employee is appropriate and not a key issue. 

It is the ability and willingness of volunteer council board or district committee members to fulfill their roles without allowing themselves to be overly influenced by anyone -- including professional staff.  Paid employees are in the position to have more-extensive knowledge of facts and have superior relationships with outside parties, such as national BSA employees.  Weak board members can allow themselves to be co-opted by paid professionals or others for any number of reasons.  These are not the right people to serve.  Certainly, there are professionals who have arranged to overly-dominate their boards or district committees.  These are plainly-obvious circumstances that can be corrected by the insertion of strong-willed and objective individuals.

I have served on key BSA boards and committees at every level of the organization from the 1980s onward.  I can only think of two examples of the kind of individuals you are concerned about who pulled the organizations off-track with their approaches -- and these individuals were laid low by some of the tougher volunteers who asked the right questions and followed up month after month.  

There is no rule or procedure that can prevent undue influence by professionals or others who might seek to overly-dominate.  Only the presence of the right kind of members on the nomination committees and boards can offset such behavior.  If the CORs and other informed volunteers in a council are unwilling or ineffective in assuring that the right people are involved, they will have little to complain about.  They must be willing to engage in and resolve conflict in favor of the future of our young people.  Registering complaints will get you absolutely nowhere -- after 38 years I have never seen that approach work.

Councils that are continuously impacted by narrow or rigid thinking by overly-dominant individuals -- because the CORs and others will not step-up -- will ultimately receive a visit from someone like me.  You will learn that the days remaining for your declining council are few.  

[RememberSchiff]

Nov 1, 2023, Kansas:

Santa Fe Trail and Quivira Council voted to merge, effective Nov. 1.

"Quivira is now the largest Boy Scout Council in the state of Kansas by territory covered, which includes Coronado, Jayhawk, Pony Express, Heart of America, and Ozark Trail Councils. Quivira says they now serve around 4,300 children active in scouting in Kansas."

https://www.ksn.com/news/local/two-kansas-boy-scout-councils-merging/

[Tron]

On 11/4/2023 at 5:48 AM, RememberSchiff said:

Nov 1, 2023, Kansas:

Santa Fe Trail and Quivira Council voted to merge, effective Nov. 1.

"Quivira is now the largest Boy Scout Council in the state of Kansas by territory covered, which includes Coronado, Jayhawk, Pony Express, Heart of America, and Ozark Trail Councils. Quivira says they now serve around 4,300 children active in scouting in Kansas."

https://www.ksn.com/news/local/two-kansas-boy-scout-councils-merging/

Holy cow that is now a geographically huge council with a lot of population. 

[fred8033]

33 minutes ago, Tron said:

Holy cow that is now a geographically huge council with a lot of population. 

Yep, but low scout numbers.  4300 scouts.  That should be considered a small size council that could be merged yet again one or two more times.  

[PACAN]

I understand that there are over 30 councils with less than 1000 youth.

[Tron]

On 11/6/2023 at 11:35 AM, fred8033 said:

Yep, but low scout numbers.  4300 scouts.  That should be considered a small size council that could be merged yet again one or two more times.  

Is there some formula for condensing or dividing councils? The local council here and most of the surrounding councils are in the 4-5000 scout range; does that put them at risk of merger?

23 hours ago, PACAN said:

I understand that there are over 30 councils with less than 1000 youth.

That is interesting, do you have an example (I would like to check out a council website of such a small council to see what a council that small is up to). 

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, Tron said:

Is there some formula for condensing or dividing councils?

I just don't understand the need for small councils anymore.  Most training and registration is online.  The key now is economies of scale to reduce cost and offer more opportunities.