Chapter 11 announced - Part 14 - Plan Effective

[johnsch322]

2 hours ago, Tron said:

I think you're missing the point of his statements and now his additional proof of the matter. People are "out to get BSA" when the reality of it is that BSA is the target because BSA has money. If BSA was an open source product with no home office squating on cash this lawsuit would never have happened.

Number one this is not a lawsuit it is a bankruptcy initiated by the BSA to avoid more lawsuits. 

Number two if the BSA was an open-sourced product then the local councils would be facing all the lawsuits and would have to make the decisions of whether or not to go bankrupt.

Number three nobody targeted the BSA. Not one person has as a youth knew a pedophile in the BSA signed up as a member and allowed the pedophile to molest them so they could 50 years later sue the BSA. In fact, the BSA set themselves up with their history of cover ups and lies (BSA official testifying before congress there was no problem with CSA).

[T2Eagle]

5 hours ago, Tron said:

I think you're missing the point of his statements and now his additional proof of the matter. People are "out to get BSA" when the reality of it is that BSA is the target because BSA has money. If BSA was an open source product with no home office squating on cash this lawsuit would never have happened.

This framing drives me crazy.  BSA isn't being sued because BSA has money, BSA is being sued because BSA DID SOMETHING WRONG!  That has been the finding of virtually every judge and jury that has heard these cases: BSA knew or should have known that pedophiles were using its program to access victims.  BSA's failures, to act, to watch, to look, to enforce rules, etc. were the reason its members, volunteer and professional, were able to sexually assault children --- for decades.  BSA DID SOMETHING WRONG AS AN ORGANIZATION! That's why they were sued AND LOST, over and over again.

If BSA had won many or most of the cases against them, if after spending lots of money on good lawyers zealously defending their clients BSA and its Councils, we had won those suits, then we wouldn't be where we are.  But we lost all those cases, BECAUSE WE DID SOMETHING WRONG.

Just because you have money doesn't mean you get sued and lose.  In fact, the best predictor of whether you will be successfully sued is how much money you have to defend yourself, and we the scouting organization had plenty of money and lost any way.

You don't lose over and over again because you're innocent.  We weren't innocent, and so we lost, over, and over, and over again.  

[skeptic]

It seems to me that the horse, has been beat until it is no longer even good for the glue factory.  Perhaps we can work on doing our best to stop it from happening.  There still cannot ever be absolutes, and if it does happen, the response needs to also follow the guidelines, and work to punish the actual perpetrator, and holding any who bent to pressure to overlook or something to accountability.  

[johnsch322]

39 minutes ago, skeptic said:

It seems to me that the horse, has been beat until it is no longer even good for the glue factory.

As long as individuals or groups try to paint a picture of Child Sexual Abuse in the BSA that is not the truth, then these untruths will continue to be called out. That is the minimum that those victims who have died or have gone down deep dark holes as a result of their abuse deserve. 

Edited January 5 by johnsch322

[skeptic]

1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

As long as individuals or groups try to paint a picture of Child Sexual Abuse in the BSA that is not the truth, then these untruths will continue to be called out. That is the minimum that those victims who have died or have gone down deep dark holes as a result of their abuse deserve. 

As long as individuals or groups try to paint a picture of Child Sexual Abuse in the BSA that is not the truth, then these untruths will continue to be called out.

Absolutely true; and the premise plays both directions.  

[johnsch322]

23 minutes ago, skeptic said:

As long as individuals or groups try to paint a picture of Child Sexual Abuse in the BSA that is not the truth, then these untruths will continue to be called out.

Absolutely true; and the premise plays both directions.  

Go ahead. Just no sad faces please. 

Edited January 5 by johnsch322

[HashTagScouts]

17 hours ago, skeptic said:

It seems to me that the horse, has been beat until it is no longer even good for the glue factory.  Perhaps we can work on doing our best to stop it from happening.  There still cannot ever be absolutes, and if it does happen, the response needs to also follow the guidelines, and work to punish the actual perpetrator, and holding any who bent to pressure to overlook or something to accountability.  

Sure. What concerns me is when there becomes an issue that is credible and in some way can be tied back to an error that someone slipped through, the PR alone is going to be the end of this organization, and the financial impacts for that are going to be just the icing on the cake.

[SiouxRanger]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:43 PM, skeptic said:

As long as individuals or groups try to paint a picture of Child Sexual Abuse in the BSA that is not the truth, then these untruths will continue to be called out.

Absolutely true; and the premise plays both directions.  

I do not understand the concept that "the premise plays in both directions."

National lost the Oregon case.

Filed bankruptcy anticipating 8,000± claims.

>80,000+ claims were filed. (Now I don't for a moment believe that 80,000+ claims is anywhere close to an accurate measure of the actual claims as the bankruptcy claims process appears to me to horribly bungled.)

But, National believes 8,000+ and the bankruptcy proceeding is 80,000+.

So, nowhere do either of those figures reduce to zero.

That is, even National agrees that there are valid outstanding claims. That is not zero.

[SiouxRanger]

Maybe just a moment to take a break in the discussion and upvote or downvote @RememberSchiff for his diligent and faithful monitoring of this site, and all the delightful and informative Scouting news and insights he brings to us. "Diligent" is how I think of his effort.

(AND, moderators, all upvotes should be attributed to @RememberSchiffand downvotes attributed to me.)

Thanks all.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

I'm only here because of the good, strong moderation. Unmoderated sites turn into nasty cesspools good for nothing real quick. Doing something constructive, therefore, requires moderation.

Thank you, @RememberSchiff. 

[Ojoman]

13 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

But, National believes 8,000+ and the bankruptcy proceeding is 80,000+.

While I do in fact, tend to lean towards the survivors, from my personal experience I question really how many cases the BSA has culpability in. Is every case in the bankruptcy documented in BSA files or are there others that have only surfaced recently... When one does not have all the facts for either side it brings to mind the old adage of 'figures never lie but liars sure can figure'... not that anyone on either side intentionally lies but half truths and misinformation can lead even the best intentioned persons far astray. My personal hope it that this issue can soon be put to rest and the BSA and the survivors can get on with life. God Bless us all! 

[RememberSchiff]

Thanks for the kind comments. Moderating is a group effort by a team of moderators and thoughtful members.

~RS

P.S. Moderators cannot Schiff votes from one member to another. 

[RememberSchiff]

From the Scouting Settlement Trust website:

Fourth Town Hall – January 10, 2024:

As I have noted during prior Town Halls, the Scouting Settlement Trust is committed to transparency and open dialogue – including periodic Town Halls. Please join Claims Administrator Randi Ilyse Roth and me for our next Town Hall on Wednesday, Jan. 10 at 8 p.m. EDT / 5 p.m. PDT.

During this hourlong online session, we plan to cover the following:

·      Update on claims processing;

·      Upcoming deadlines;

·      How to avoid common issues with Trust Matrix Claims;

·      Q&A from attendees.

You can register for the Town Hall at this link. All attendees must register prior to the Town Hall. 

Once you have registered, you will receive a confirmation email from PwC Webcasting with a link to the Town Hall.

Please note, there are capacity limits to the number of participants that can join the webcast. Therefore, we kindly ask that you only register if you truly plan to attend. Additionally, a replay of the Town Hall will be available at www.scoutingsettlementtrust.com after the Town Hall.

I look forward to speaking with you on Wednesday, Jan. 10.

Respectfully,

Hon. Barbara J. Houser (Ret.)

Trustee 

[MYCVAStory]

20 hours ago, Ojoman said:

While I do in fact, tend to lean towards the survivors, from my personal experience I question really how many cases the BSA has culpability in. Is every case in the bankruptcy documented in BSA files or are there others that have only surfaced recently... When one does not have all the facts for either side it brings to mind the old adage of 'figures never lie but liars sure can figure'... not that anyone on either side intentionally lies but half truths and misinformation can lead even the best intentioned persons far astray. My personal hope it that this issue can soon be put to rest and the BSA and the survivors can get on with life. God Bless us all! 

Let me break this down:

1.  No, every case is not documented in BSA files.  To those who understand what it means to being a Survivor that is no surprise.  The age of coming forward, if at all, is well into middle-age.  Again, if at all.  On top of that, if you are in a State where the SOLs do not allow for a lawsuit to be filed you have even less motivation.  For some, coming forward is part of their healing.  For others, burying this deeper is how they keep control in some way.

2.  The bankruptcy produced an environment of "now or never" when it comes to admitting what happened to a Survivor.  I hear from younger Survivors all the time that were it not for the bankruptcy they would have stayed quiet until they were ready, if ever.  That is important because when I hear "The mass tort attorneys "produced' all these claims and many are bogus" I have to remind people that we will never know the number of younger Survivors who were not mentally prepared to come forward.  I spoke to a Survivor last week in that situation.  His comment was essentially "I just started a career and I'm dating someone that is becoming serious.  I don't want to let my baggage screw any of that up so I didn't file a claim."  How many like that are there?  That's another number we will never know but we must recognize that this process set a time limit that essentially forced many to come forward long before they were ready, or in what I suspect were a large number of instances, not come forward at all.

3.  While you might hope that Survivors can "Get on with life", I beg you, please stop saying that.  It is so hurtful to suggest that this process will somehow provide a degree of resolution that will make people move on.  What the bankruptcy resolves is Survivors' LEGAL path against some entities.  I have yet to speak to a Survivor who has said that the Bankruptcy will let them move on.  Being a Survivor for most is a lifetime sentence and many are now being re-traumatized with the waiting, loss of a legal path, and what I suspect will be payments far below the matrix value.  In fast, a Wall Street Journal article this week blasting the mass tort industry had two "experts" predicting that a BSA claim with a matrix value of $1.2 million would see an actual award of $30,000.  You want to be re-traumatized, well, there you go, and that isn't something you shake and get on with your life very easily.  Oh, and that 30K prediction?  Well, I reached out to one of the authors and asked where he came up with that number.  His response, "It was an educated guess."  GUESS?  When people think so little of Survivors that they make guesses that will traumatize many, it's just another day of not "moving on."  Please, have your hopes for the BSA but stop thinking that the vast majority of Survivors are going to "get on with their life."

 

[Eagle1970]

2 minutes ago, MYCVAStory said:

Please, have your hopes for the BSA but stop thinking that the vast majority of Survivors are going to "get on with their life."

 

I first discussed my abuse with close family when I was in my late 20's.  I told my parents and asked what I should do.  My dad's attorney advised on the criminal and civil statutes, and that was that.  It did not produce justice nor compensation.  More like injustice, knowing that my Boy Scout employed abuser received a blessing from the state.

So far as the bankruptcy goes, I will stone-clad guarantee you that this 3-4 year process (so far) has produced nothing but more heartache and pain-especially given that I was pretty much required to re-live all of the events in order to properly document and convey the information to the trust.  Then we have the Matrix.  When I filed my claim, I contacted the administrator and was told that because it was a bankruptcy there would be no impact of state statutes of limitation.  Sure.   The matrix cuts my claim by 80% on jurisdiction alone, so even with all of the aggravating factors, I stand to gain about as much as a survivor in an open state, whose only abuse was being shown some porn.  And I am not making light of any abuse.  Just making a point.

There is nothing, again, nothing in this settlement that will fix anything.  And, yes, I believe BSA should have paid with termination of its charter, because that is the only way in my mind this cannot happen to anyone again.  Ever.  And if I let it eat at me, I now have not only my abuser to despise, but the BSA, the state of Missouri (which ALMOST opened a window, except for the insurance lobby, church and Chamber of Commerce) and now the inequity in the trust, the slow legal system, the insurance companies, the court system.  So, no, there's no getting on with my life.  I try to see the bright side of things, but I now despise ALL of the aforementioned, and there will be no forgiving.  I, long ago, abandoned the Catholic Church.  But the effing Chamber of Commerce?