Chapter 11 announced - Part 14 - Plan Effective

[skeptic]

And, the reality that "justice" is not a finite concept and ambiguous for the most part.  Those harmed or at least feeling harmed always will say "justice" is not served, no matter what.  Our legal system is such that the lawyers can play games for decades in some cases, certainly for months at least, and whatever happens, "justice" is not served for somebody, and the balance of Her scales will not be therre.  

[MYCVAStory]

10 hours ago, Eagle1970 said:

So it sounds like this will stop the Trust to some extent.

No.  All the Appellate Court said essentially was "We aren't going to dismiss the appeal at this point, we'll hear it."  As well, the Trust is proceeding as previously because a confirmed plan is in place and has not been stayed.  If anything, the Trust with each day will be working to make a stronger mootness case that the plan is far enough along.  So while I'm sure the BSA wanted the appeal tossed without comment it wasn't unexpected that it would be heard.  Interestingly, there are rumblings that SCOTUS will make its Purdue Pharma decision before its term ends in June, perhaps in April.  If so, there's less chance that the Appellate Court will act without SCOTUS guidance.  So....business as usual.  Fill out your questionnaires and....wait.  And if you live in a State where Statutes allow a suit to proceed, make sure you have a good attorney who is ready to pounce IF the national bankruptcy fails and the injunction against the Local Councils goes poof.  Note to a LOT of Survivors, check your attorney retainer agreement.  Many Many mass tort attorneys make it clear that they represent you in the NATIONAL bankruptcy and not in State cases against a local council.

[Tron]

On 12/11/2023 at 7:49 PM, MYCVAStory said:

Tell me, what Councils did you work in?  I ask because you make it sound as if there were no issues under your watch.  I'd love to know which Councils didn't have a problem. As well, I wouldn't crow too much about being on the inside during the 70's through 90's.  Claims from that period were at their highest.  Below is the summary of claims.  You might want to read it.  As well, just a friendly reminder to all, like him of not, Michael Johnson stated that HALF of the YP reports he read were youth on youth.  We seem to forget that when we talk about all the safeguards in place.  At any rate, about your statement "Sorry to break your balloon but I was a BSA employee and I know how active the BSA was over 4 decades ago in addressing this problem. "  Well, take a look at the file below.  regardless of how active the BSA was in "addressing" the problem, I have news for you, it failed.  Don't tell me about how the BSA's rates of abuse are no worse than the general public.  Our parents weren't getting assurances from the general public that their kids were safe.  Don't tell me that training existed.  The Scouts own records show that half of registered leaders didn't take YP training.  Don't tell me the YP training is foolproof now.  I sat for it last year and could skip ahead to get my "certificate" without completing all modules.  I could go one.  Active or not, look at the attached claims summary AND remember that with men on average coming forward well into middle-age the numbers for the past three decades might be artificially low.  I won't argue that the BSA didn't try.  It did, and it failed.

BSA Summary of Sexual Abuse Claims.pdf 1.27 MB · 6 downloads

I see what both of you are saying here. What I would like to point out is that my council absorbed several other councils and as it turns out we had a substantial liability during the settlement; however, as the story goes, of all the councils merged to make this current council, one of them had almost no issues because they were following the rules and enforcing the standards. 

What I would like to see is this summary really broken down to the council that existed in that time. So for example if the "modern council" has 100 claims, I would like to see a sub section that shows "Old council 50, old council two, 25, old council three 10, etc ..." Even breaking things down to the old district levels would be great. I think there were districts and councils doing things way better than others. We don't have the visibility to see who they were so we're not able to examine what they did that was done correct compared to all of the other districts and councils that failed the youth so badly.

[clbkbx]

4 hours ago, Tron said:

summary really broken down to the council

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0q1ox20xqw5mmzjz4i5im/a3fa6777-ba03-42a0-a73b-5c9a90600938_2022-03-11_FINAL_REDACTED_Supplemental_LC_and_CO_Voting_Report.xlsx?rlkey=t7x65kvcmqmypuvp5zhedg4tl&dl=0

That is the excel sheet that was provided after the vote that was accepted. I don’t recall whether the question was for current council or at time of abuse. There’s a lot of empty cells and it only reflects the data from people that voted… but maybe you can use it. 

[MYCVAStory]

On 12/19/2023 at 4:52 PM, Tron said:

I think there were districts and councils doing things way better than others.

Perhaps, but I've been struck by the number of professionals who said prior to the claims coming in "We don't have a problem" and then were shocked down the road when they saw otherwise.  This is also a matter of scope that must take into account the number of youth served.  Logically the more youth served the greater the chance for abuse.  This is especially true for youth-on-youth abuse.  Again though, it is/was a problem for all Councils.  The summary of claims attached lists the Councils on the claim forms.  NOTE:  38,000 Survivors did NOT indicate their Council at the time of filing a claim.   I suspect that number will go down significantly when Survivors file their questionnaires with the Trust, and have the time to collect all their pertinent data.  As well, I hope the Trust will release asummary at some point so this is all better understood.  While Scouting won't want the reminder, it's critical that Society understand the full scope of what happened and where.  Only then can we be assured that data-driven decisions are attempting to address the issues correctly.

BSA Summary of Sexual Abuse Claims(1).pdf

[skeptic]

Okay, finally we can see apparent proof that the BSA issue is part of the larger problem in our country, and probably most of the world if other countries mirror us in some manner.  I was called names and worse when I tried to point out that BSA was being singled out while a greater problem likely exists throughout the youth serving agencies.  

https://www.businessinsider.com/sexual-abuse-schools-inappropriate-student-teacher-relationship-predators-2023-12

So, while there still is no excuse for what was sensationalized in regard to BSA, much that was poorly documented or exaggerated by media hype, we find a far larger concern still being glossed over.  Who is doing the glossing, the authorities, school districts, and others for a myriad of reasons.  I suspect if someone is able to find the documentation, child sports and other youth outreaches fall into this sad issue.  

The saddest part though is that it is not new, nor will it go away, no matter how upset we can get.  Bad people exist in the larger populace and find ways to take advantage and hide behind legal and insurance walls.  IF this article is close to accurate, it seems that the lack of cooperation of agencies  when asked for records and such is worse than the BSA problem as far as scale.  

Reality is that MOST educators DO NOT prey on their students, but strive to enlighten them and protect them.  The darker segments of humanity are real, and it needs to be recognized while not discounting that MOST mentors, whether in Schools, Youth Groups, Churches, or sports are NOT predators and try very hard to improve the lives of children.  JMHO of course.  

[johnsch322]

43 minutes ago, skeptic said:

I was called names and worse when I tried to point out that BSA was being singled out while a greater problem likely exists throughout the youth serving agencies.  

You were called out because you have consistently tried to downplay BSA's role and responsibility by referencing such as: the social norms of the times that the abuse occurred, BSA is better at CSA prevention than other organizations etc etc. Once again, your words are like that of a child, I hit Johnny because Joe hit Johnny so I can't be that bad.

[ThenNow]

35 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

You were called out because you have consistently tried to downplay BSA's role and responsibility by referencing such as: the social norms of the times that the abuse occurred, BSA is better at CSA prevention than other organizations etc etc. Once again, your words are like that of a child, I hit Johnny because Joe hit Johnny so I can't be that bad.

Greetings, all, and Happy Christmas/Blessed Holidays.

My wife calls this approach to life and morality, "relative godliness." While many here would not like to associate themselves with the cultural shift toward a subjective application of "truth" and "what is right," the willingness to practice subjective and relative responsibility and accountability shows itself rather often (in some). In Scouting, I learned to account for myself, standing apart and ready to "be counted," distinct from what others have done around me. I did what I did. That is what I must be held to.

"Wait, say you!" Might there be mitigating circumstances or justifiable self-defense in response to someone else's behavior toward me? Yes. However, that is completely irrelevant here. BSA had no assailant. Blameless or not blameless. They came up short or hit it out of the park. Which is it?

Hold me to what I did or failed to do. Don't look at my friend or brother or the family down the block. "Joe" is completely and totally irrelevant in the above equation. His actions cannot and do not exonerate or absolve the "I" for his battery.  

Young foolish me: "Mom, everyone is doing it, really! Why can't I? Don't you understand? Doesn't that make sense?"

Mom: "No. Go mow the grass before your dad gets home. Cross hatch it while you're at it and make it snappy."

So there.

Edited December 22, 2023 by ThenNow
Oops. Probably more of them in there...

[skeptic]

30 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

You were called out because you have consistently tried to downplay BSA's role and responsibility by referencing such as: the social norms of the times that the abuse occurred, BSA is better at CSA prevention than other organizations etc etc. Once again, your words are like that of a child, I hit Johnny because Joe hit Johnny so I can't be that bad.

our view, and your right.  Biased and skewed by circumstance, but your issue in that regard.  I wish there was a way for your pain and hate to be lessened.  But that is not something any of us can do, nor is there enough money to do it either.  The realities of a warped society and human weakness cannot be remedied, but only protected against as well as possible.  Recognition of reality is not the same as condoning bad actions.  

 

[yknot]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

Okay, finally we can see apparent proof that the BSA issue is part of the larger problem in our country, and probably most of the world if other countries mirror us in some manner.  I was called names and worse when I tried to point out that BSA was being singled out while a greater problem likely exists throughout the youth serving agencies.  

https://www.businessinsider.com/sexual-abuse-schools-inappropriate-student-teacher-relationship-predators-2023-12

 

Keep in mind there are currently 75 million school children in the US and close to to 10 million adults working in K-12 educational settings each year. While CSA is a concern in any setting where adults have access to kids, the numbers in scouting spike high given the relatively small slice of the population involved. 

[skeptic]

12 minutes ago, yknot said:

Keep in mind there are currently 75 million school children in the US and close to to 10 million adults working in K-12 educational settings each year. While CSA is a concern in any setting where adults have access to kids, the numbers in scouting spike high given the relatively small slice of the population involved. 

That may be; but we also may be only seeing the tip of the proverbial iceberg.  Also comparatively, the percent of verified abuse in relation to the total number of scouts is very small statistically.  Still, there is an ongoing challenge, and many errors and simply stupid decisions have been noted.  It is a little scary, but we can  only "Do Our Best".

[RememberSchiff]

On 12/6/2023 at 1:02 AM, MYCVAStory said:

SO....Judge Silverstein has ruled on the Coalition's Substantial Contribution Payment and has decided they get....NOTHING.  That's right, they requested the BSA pay what, $20 million for the lawyers and professionals to represent it when it tried to strong-arm a settlement that the Survivors voted down!?  The opinion is below and it's a doozy.  Basically, "you were representing a constituency that the TCC already represented.", "You took credit for everything and that was objected to.", "You told the Court when you wanted to become a mediation party that the State Court Counsels who made up the Coalition would be paying its professional fees.", "Oh, and those personal injury attorneys are making 25-40% of their clients' awards so they can pay the bills of their professionals."  So karma rules.  Big Time.  I'm no attorney but the ruling really reads like a "What not to do" for the next entity that tries to pull the same maneuver. 

11652 12-05-23 Opinion.pdf 1.64 MB · 4 downloads

Update Dec 18, 2023:

Coalition submits appeal to "Each and every part of the Order Denying Motion, dated December 5, 2023" by Judge Silverstein which soundly rejected their $20M billing.

Source:

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/f40851ae-4416-4ace-9667-083fe0aba97e_11681.pdf

[johnsch322]

4 hours ago, skeptic said:

I wish there was a way for your pain and hate to be lessened.

I think you are being a bit presumptive. You do not know me or have any real knowledge of my mental state. I have no hate, not even against my two perpetrators. The pain of what happened is being brought under control by therapy.

 

4 hours ago, skeptic said:

But that is not something any of us can do

I have not asked nor will ask for you to do anything.

 

5 hours ago, skeptic said:

nor is there enough money to do it either.

Money helps especially for those who have had to pay out of pocket for professional help to overcome the trauma that was inflicted upon them. I know for a fact that some survivors have paid into the millions for help.

 

5 hours ago, skeptic said:

Recognition of reality is not the same as condoning bad actions.  

Whose reality are we talking about. I do not believe you are recognizing the reality of BSA's involvement in the lax enforcement and the subsequent cover up. Heck the BSA told congress they had no issues with CSA within the BSA, what a lie.

[RememberSchiff]

Peace on Earth and Goodwill.

Topic locked for holidays.

Update 01/02/2024: Kind and courteous please. Topic unlocked. Thank you.

Edited January 2 by RememberSchiff

[Tron]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:44 PM, johnsch322 said:

You were called out because you have consistently tried to downplay BSA's role and responsibility by referencing such as: the social norms of the times that the abuse occurred, BSA is better at CSA prevention than other organizations etc etc. Once again, your words are like that of a child, I hit Johnny because Joe hit Johnny so I can't be that bad.

I think you're missing the point of his statements and now his additional proof of the matter. People are "out to get BSA" when the reality of it is that BSA is the target because BSA has money. If BSA was an open source product with no home office squating on cash this lawsuit would never have happened.