Chapter 11 announced - Part 14 - Plan Effective

[SiouxRanger]

20 hours ago, Ojoman said:

 A s i recall though the police were in the loop. The SE was supposed to immediately suspend the volunteer  and had to be notified. 

Well, from National's BSA files, the council would receive an incident report, send it to National (now what we'd call "snail mail,") get a reply, AND THEN the volunteer's registration would be revoked, (or perhaps suspended pending further information).

But this all begs the question, just what level of confidentiality did yen ou hold in the hierarchy?  Were you even privy to this level of mess?

20 hours ago, Ojoman said:

 A s i recall though the police were in the loop. The SE was supposed to immediately suspend the volunteer  and had to be notified. 

Well, from National's BSA files, the council would receive an incident report, send it to National (now what we'd call "snail mail,") get a reply, AND THEN the volunteer's registration would be revoked, (or perhaps suspended pending further information).

But this all begs the question, just what level of confidentiality did yen ou hold in the hierarchy?  Were you even privy to this level of mess?

[Eagle94-A1]

10 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

Haven' read any indication of law enforcement notification of abuse incidents by local councils or NATIONAL BSA in National's Illegible Volunteer files I've read.

Please post all such records from National's Ineligible Volunteer files of which you are aware.

Thanks so much.

I had a friend accused of CSA and was placed in the IVF.  However I cannot find her file among the ones released by a law firm a while back. I can verify that one had police intervention, and she was not prosecuted because evidence supported her , not the accuser.

[SiouxRanger]

20 hours ago, Ojoman said:

 A s i recall though the police were in the loop. The SE was supposed to immediately suspend the volunteer  and had to be notified. 

Well, from National's BSA files, the council would receive an incident report, send it to National (now what we'd call "snail mail,") get a reply, AND THEN the volunteer's registration would be revoked, (or perhaps suspended pending further information).

But this all begs the question, just what level of confidentiality did you hold in the hierarchy?  Were you even privy to this level of mess?

20 hours ago, Ojoman said:

 A s i recall though the police were in the loop. The SE was supposed to immediately suspend the volunteer  and had to be notified. 

Well, from National's BSA files, the council would receive an incident report, send it to National (now what we'd call "snail mail,") get a reply, AND THEN the volunteer's registration would be revoked, (or perhaps suspended pending further information).

But this all begs the question, just what level of confidentiality did you hold in the hierarchy?  Were you even privy to this level of mess?

[fred8033]

22 hours ago, yknot said:

In about half of states, teachers were mandatory reporters by the mid 1970s, so... no.

That is an overly simplistic statement.  

About what?  Child Abuse in 1970s was about Battered Child Syndrome; CSA was not the focus until 1990s.  Teachers were looking for bruises and physical signs of abuse.  

To whom?  School administration is a government entity hired and paid for by the tax payer.  

Half the states.  

[yknot]

6 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

That is an overly simplistic statement.  

About what?  Child Abuse in 1970s was about Battered Child Syndrome; CSA was not the focus until 1990s.  Teachers were looking for bruises and physical signs of abuse.  

To whom?  School administration is a government entity hired and paid for by the tax payer.  

Half the states.  

In my school district in the 1970s a teacher reported a suspected case of sexual abuse by a parent. My aunt was the child psychologist involved with the court system and delivered expert testimony in the case. People were plenty aware of CSA well, well before that. BSA certainly was --  it kept "red" files as far back as the 1920s where it documented moral perversion and degenerate cases in it's "red" files, as James West detailed in a 1935 New York Times article which you can easily google. 

 

 

[SiouxRanger]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

That is an overly simplistic statement.  

About what?  Child Abuse in 1970s was about Battered Child Syndrome; CSA was not the focus until 1990s.  Teachers were looking for bruises and physical signs of abuse.  

To whom?  School administration is a government entity hired and paid for by the tax payer.  

Half the states.  

Not sure I understand the significance of "being a mandatory reporter."

I see Tom smack Bill with a baseball bat, I'd report it, even if not a "mandatory reporter."

I hear/see AAA abuse ccc, I'd report that too, mandatory reporter or not.

Are we standing on technicalities in the protection of children???

When in doubt, REPORT. Raise the alarm.  Raising a false alarm, you are "The Boy Who Cried Wolf."

Fail to raise the alarm, well, abuse.

 

[Ojoman]

I'm done with this topic... beating a dead horse... I have no agenda, hidden or otherwise... from my experience the BSA was far ahead of other youth programs in taking steps to protect kids for all types of abuse. (I could be in error but that's my experience). Hindsight is so wonderful... let's blame people that made good faith efforts dealing with the laws and circumstances. I expect that right this moment there are a few people in the program that are a danger to kids but there is no way, until they act and are reported, to know who they are so when something happens let's blame the BSA for not being psychic. It is obvious that some folks are still in so much pain (and I feel for them) that they need to vent against the 'system'. I've had 'issues' in my own life that were quite painful but I did move on. Folks can quote me, make negative comments about me and my posts but for my money the BSA is still tops for helping kids grow to be solid citizens. Character, citizenship and fitness should never go out of style and giving kids the Oath and Law as standards to shoot for will always be a positive. Don't look for any more posts from me. I'm just glad the bankruptcy is settled and the BSA can start to rebuild and recover.  

[johnsch322]

2 hours ago, Ojoman said:

I'm done with this topic... beating a dead horse... I have no agenda, hidden or otherwise... from my experience the BSA was far ahead of other youth programs in taking steps to protect kids for all types of abuse. (I could be in error but that's my experience). Hindsight is so wonderful... let's blame people that made good faith efforts dealing with the laws and circumstances. I expect that right this moment there are a few people in the program that are a danger to kids but there is no way, until they act and are reported, to know who they are so when something happens let's blame the BSA for not being psychic. It is obvious that some folks are still in so much pain (and I feel for them) that they need to vent against the 'system'. I've had 'issues' in my own life that were quite painful but I did move on. Folks can quote me, make negative comments about me and my posts but for my money the BSA is still tops for helping kids grow to be solid citizens. Character, citizenship and fitness should never go out of style and giving kids the Oath and Law as standards to shoot for will always be a positive. Don't look for any more posts from me. I'm just glad the bankruptcy is settled and the BSA can start to rebuild and recover.  

Bankruptcy is not technically over. Still has to go thru the appeals process completely and depending on the Purdue ruling might be back to square one. At that point all of the state courts where the cases that have been filed will start moving forward and I ultimately believe if that happens BSA will cease to exist.

PS Not sure which side has been beating the deans horse. You obviously choose to ignore any facts placed before you. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by johnsch322

[fred8033]

21 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Haven' read any indication of law enforcement notification of abuse incidents by local councils or NATIONAL BSA in National's Illegible Volunteer files I've read.

Please post all such records from National's Ineligible Volunteer files of which you are aware.

Thanks so much.

Then you  have not read many or your are being disingenuous.  The files contain many including police reports and court proceedings.  

[fred8033]

10 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

PS Not sure which side has been beating the deans horse. You obviously choose to ignore any facts placed before you. 

People are selectively choosing facts and interpretations.  Even the earlier posted 1981 letter shows valid concerns about where record are kept and privacy.   Embarrassment is not labeled as whose.  Victims?  The family?  The community?  This is how all of society viewed CSA in the 1980s.   

Criticizing for emphasizing centralization of records?  Would the preference instead be 400+ building  offices keeping the files in some random person's desk drawer or book shelf?  That would have been highly unprofessional and not taking it seriously ... but at least it would have avoided the looting of BSA.  

When people criticize BSA on CSA, I really don't think they are being intellectually honest.  

[fred8033]

14 hours ago, yknot said:

My aunt was the child psychologist involved with the court system and delivered expert testimony in the case.

Yep.  And I strongly suspect the first officials notified were either the principal or the psychologist.  The teacher would have been in big trouble if a police car showed up at school without the administration knowing first. 

[JBWest]

On 12/11/2023 at 12:39 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

When I did research on this topic a long time ago, the rationale for reporting to the SE, and not directly to authorities,  was that different jurisdictions had different definitions of mandatory reporters. Unless you caught them in the act, if you reported an incident, and it was false, you would be held liable and face possible civil litigation.

Different states have different laws, and laws change over time. If you read some of the files, there are notations that victim's parents did not want their child to relive the horror in court. So there was no prosecution.

As for defamation, and proof, if the victims are unwilling to testify, it makes things difficult to prosecute. Also there are times when allegations have been proven false. I know of one such case in BSA. Duke Lacrosse team also comes to mind. And it wasn't  until the mid-late 1990s, that youth volunteers got mandatory reporter protections if memory serves.

This makes sense when you think about it.   Abuse reported, police or parents decline to pursue, but as a private organisation the BSA excludes the person from the program.

[fred8033]

13 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Fail to raise the alarm, well, abuse.

You just indicted pretty much all of society.  

Mandatory reporting is discussed as it defines if there was a legal shortcoming to how things were handled; defining an explicit negligence; not just a idealistic negligence.

Mandatory reporting laws have drastically changed over the years.  Often decade by decade.  Offense by offense. 

 

[1980Scouter]

10 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

Bankruptcy is not technically over. Still has to go thru the appeals process completely and depending on the Purdue ruling might be back to square one. At that point all of the state courts where the cases that have been filed will start moving forward and I ultimately believe if that happens BSA will cease to exist.

PS Not sure which side has been beating the deans horse. You obviously choose to ignore any facts placed before you. 

I agree 100%. Bankruptcy is not over and could go either way. Anyone saying the plan is complete or it will fail does not know what will really happen. 

It looks more like it will pass at this point but still a few variables that could come into play. 

I fault the BSA for telling members and media that the Bankruptcy is complete when it is not. 

[clbkbx]

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

are being disingenuous

Can you post them or provide any documentation like @SiouxRangersuggested?
 

BSA knew when my abuser was arrested in the late 90’s and didn’t do anything helpful. Radio silence. They didn’t offer to help in any way (to me, family, police). Hard for me to believe they would have involved the police when they wouldn’t even engage to help an abused scout when there was a credible accusation.