The patrol system and muggles

[Cambridgeskip]

Some ponderings from across the Atlantic....

This week at scouts one of my younger (11 year old) scouts brought a friend along. Nothing all that unusual in that, it's how we've had new sign ups in the past. However this time it wasn't a friend who was particularly interested in joining, he was just staying with a friend for a couple of days so tagged along for the evening. So far so good.

I had a bit of a chat with him and he was particularly curious about the patrol system and in particular the concept of patrol leaders. It just did not compute with him that we have older scouts in charge of younger scouts, that scouts are expected to follow instructions from PLs, that PLs are invited to make decisions about the troop and what we do and how we do it. And when I explained that PLs collectively apoint APLs and collectively select their own scuccessors when they move on (I know that particular point is a bit different to you!)  he was utterly bewildered. It just did not compute at all.

Given that I know BSA are that much stronger on the patrol system than we are over here I wondered if you encounter similar. That kids who are not scouts just do not get it in terms of youth leadership?

[Eagle94-A1]

My problem has been recently crossed over Cub Scouts from packs that did not properly use the transition program having a hard time understanding that the Scouts are in charge. Sometimes it takes time and counseling, but they usually get it and enjoy it.

My BIGGEST (major emphasis) problems problems have been the parents of recently crossed over Cub Scouts. As far back as when I was a Scout, we had issues with parents not understanding the concept and interfering, including those who should have known better One case was the Eagle Scout and an experienced ASM telling me that they do not think the Patrol Method works and that the adults need to take charge and run things. These two were overheard by several Scouts telling their Scout he does not need to listen ot htem, only the adults.They eventually went to a troop just like that. Worst case was a group of parents who, despite being "trained" would ignore it and take over command of the Scouts. Those parents nearly killed the troop, and caused 2 families to leave.

At least in the USA, our kids are so regimented, i.e. activities planned and scheduled by parents, strict extracurricular practices led by coaches, etc, that extremely few kids have any free-time and can think for themselves. Not scouting related, but when I was in charge of a job shadowing program at my former job, I could not tell you how many how many parents, including parents of college age students,  filled out and scheduled shadowing for their child, without the child even knowing what to do. At my current job, I had parents organize their child's college schedules without understanding the process. In one case the plan by the mother would have resulted in no financial aid, and would have taken the student twice as long to complete the degree. In another instance, when COVID limited the number of people in our facilities, I had one mother screaming at me because she could not come in to tell us her daughter's schedule. She also did not know the process. We worked with the student, got everything set up properly for the student, and when she shows mom after leave, we get yelled at for screwing up her daughter's schedule. This is a college student and their mother.

[yknot]

It's not uncommon. It's not just kids who are over scheduled and who are used to helicopter parents -- that is one aspect of it -- but it is also the fact that a lot of kids are being raised with the idea that no social peer can or should tell you what to do. Two exceptions to that are scouts and sports but not every kid has exposure to these activities. Harassment, Intimidation, and Bullying laws in many states, which have been reinforced through the educational system for at least the past ten years, also teach kids not only to not listen to peers but also to not necessarily trust them. Scouts, if they haven't been exposed to it before, kind of asks them to turn all that on its head, so plenty of them are understandably bewildered. 

[mrjohns2]

7 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

collectively select their own scuccessors when they move on

I’m confused on this point. Patrol members do, or don’t, vote for their PLs?

[skeptic]

Two seeparate versions of the program.  The British or likely original BP concept leading to hopefully a smoother transition.  In the Patrol system, as noted by Hillcourt, yes the patrol members would vote for a patrol leader, ideally.  But, as understood, I believe, there is an adult option to veto that in "rare" circumstances.  But, that should be the last option; often the floundering youth finds his way and surprises us.  As adults, it can be very hard to watch the new leaders struggle, but that is part of the process.  

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

40 minutes ago, skeptic said:

As adults, it can be very hard to watch the new leaders struggle, but that is part of the process. 

Exactly. You have to fail at leading your peers before you can succeed, and scouts gives you the chance to do it in a low-risk environment.

[Cambridgeskip]

3 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I’m confused on this point. Patrol members do, or don’t, vote for their PLs?

There is no set way of doing it in the U.K. How my troop does it is that when one or more PL is moving onto explorers the PLC (including those leaving) collectively select their replacement. Patrols are more of a way organising the troop than a troop being a way of organising the patrols!

More the point though is that this kid just didn’t understand the idea of youth members having any say on who the youth leaders are

[MattR]

@Cambridgeskip , the idea of scouts making decisions and leading other scouts is strange for a lot of scouts as they transfer from cubs to scouts. But they don't see that as much as they will have to listen to the older scouts and do as they're told, much like listening to adults. That's their first shock. Their second is learning how to tell the younger scouts what to do years later when they become older.

Now that you mentioned this I wonder if that isn't what makes scouts unique and, more importantly, is what parents and kids don't understand about the benefits of scouting.

At least over here, it's become really easy to say "scouting is about eagle." It's a short, sweet elevator speech when in fact it's much more than that. I can't easily describe the benefits of scouting but I recognize it when I see older scouts working with younger scouts and those younger scouts looking up to the older scouts. 

[qwazse]

On 4/29/2023 at 3:56 AM, Cambridgeskip said:

…That kids who are not scouts just do not get it in terms of youth leadership?

We get that a lot. The crossovers are pretty clear on the concept. (I think the most recent curriculum is especially helpful.) Others that age need to warm up to it. It can be source of some behavior issues for the boy whose gotten used to ignoring his parents, and now there’s this older youth to whom he must answer.
Last week, our SPL touched base with us about one such 1st year. The good news was that the scout’s parents are very supportive and respect all of the new “older brothers” assigned to their son!