Double Dipping

[5thGenTexan]

 I think it depends in circumstances regarding when and where double dipping is allowed.  My specific question today relates to the conservation project in the Camping MB and the 3 hour conservation project as a rank requirement for Life?

[HashTagScouts]

I'd say go for it. If you'd count the camping night(s) done for say Tenderfoot as part of the 20 nights for Camping MB, then why not allow this?

[fred8033]

@5thGenTexan ... Use the explicit words in the requirements.  Unless it says "not used elsewhere" or "separate from" or "since earning" ..., then it's allowed.

[qwazse]

The “conservation project” for Camping 9c is implicitly done while camping and has no minimum time requirement. The requirement for life has three hour minimum but no context, and may be performed in non-consecutive intervals.

I can’t imagine a Star scout so tightly managed that he/she would have to double dip, but I would be fine with it.

[qwazse]

This might be one to float by your PLC. Ask if they think it’s fair that a Star scout earning Camping MB could use time served to fulfill 9b toward Life req 4, while scouts who earned camping while holding a different rank cannot.

This could lead to a fruitful discussion about the morality of doing service hours for a reward. 😎

Edited March 23, 2023 by qwazse

[Eagle94-A1]

Service hour requirement for Life states " While a Star Scout, [emphasis] participate in six hours of service through one or more service projects approved by your Scoutmaster. At least 3 hours of this service must be conservation related."

[nolesrule]

This topic is covered in GTA Section 4.2.3.6

I like what it says about service hours and service projects.

Quote

When contemplating whether to double-count service hours or a service project, and apply the same work to pass a second advancement requirement, each Scout should consider: “Do I want to get double credit for helping others this one time, or do I want to undertake a second effort and make a greater difference in the lives of even more people?” To reach a decision, each Scout should follow familiar guideposts found in some of those words and phrases we live by, such as “helpful,” “kind,” “Do a Good Turn Daily,” and “help other people at all times.”

By the book, anything done toward a requirement may also be used toward another requirement, as long as the requirements for one of them do not expressly forbid it, and all requirements are met as written.

[5thGenTexan]

43 minutes ago, nolesrule said:

This topic is covered in GTA Section 4.2.3.6

I like what it says about service hours and service projects.

By the book, anything done toward a requirement may also be used toward another requirement, as long as the requirements for one of them do not expressly forbid it, and all requirements are met as written.

 I guess I am more interested in if it can be for the same project.  I have no problem making her work for the rank advancement portion in the morning, stop for lunch and work more in the afternoon to satisfy the MB requirement. 

[5thGenTexan]

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

This might be one to float by your PLC. Ask if they think it’s fair that a Star scout earning Camping MB could use time served to fulfill 9b toward Life req 4, while scouts who earned camping while holding a different rank cannot.

This could lead to a fruitful discussion about the morality of doing service hours for a reward. 😎

There is no PLC with enough knowledge to have a discussion on this topic.  

[malraux]

Ask the youth in question if they think they should be able to double dip in this way and to justify it. The right answer being whatever they decide for themselves.

[skeptic]

Like most of these types of things, it is variable as to the best approach.  Ultimately, it is the leader that needs to decide, an d as long as it does not obviously contradict vague "rules or guides" there is not wrong answer.  This idea that everything is black or white is just ignorant.  Sky changes with the light it receives, and so do most human perspectives.

 

[qwazse]

20 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

There is no PLC with enough knowledge to have a discussion on this topic.  

Who’s wearing the patch, who’s working on their advancement, and who’s applying for the award? It’s time to educate them about this possible leeway in their program.

Seriously, this is not an adult’s problem. We need to spend a lot of time arranging safe travels, training for all manner of hazards, and putting coffee on in a timely fashion. These little quirks that arise because the advancement method has become verbose and complicated … they won’t bother us one way or the other. It’s the youth who know what each of them as done who will feel the emotional damage if they think either a) one of their peers took a shortcut because the SM was permissive or b) one of their peers was blocked for a technicality because the SM was restrictive.

Youth who know you respect their opinion will be youth who talk to you on weightier topics.

[InquisitiveScouter]

7 minutes ago, qwazse said:

It’s the youth who know what each of them as done who will feel the emotional damage if they think either a) one of their peers took a shortcut because the SM was permissive or b) one of their peers was blocked for a technicality because the SM was restrictive.

Youth who know you respect their opinion will be youth who talk to you on weightier topics.

During my SM conferences, I ask each Scout, "Other than you 😛 , who is the best Scout in this Troop, and why?"  And then I challenge them to emulate the successful behavior they see in others.  I also ask them, with a promise of anonymity, "Which Scout challenges you the most, in either a positive or negative way?"  In about 75%(?) of answers that they bring up a negative example.  Usually some bullying or poor behavior that goes on when adults aren't watching.  I take notes and I observe more closely to address the behavior.  Often, Scouts talk about how someone goes to merit badge colleges or summer camp and gets "free merit badges", where they do no work, but get the badge, or has their parents sign up as MBC's and gets them that way. (Our newest Eagle Scout candidate has completed four Eagle-required merit badges that way, and the Scouts often point to this as a negative.  I agree that it is bad optics, but ethical behavior starts in the home, and if his parents aren't modeling it, then we will have much less positive impact in the unit.)

Scouts talk, and they have their own "pecking order" when it comes to evaluating who is a good Scout and who isn't.  We try to monitor this peer-perception system, and interject truth when needed, because, like most organizations, there is gossip and misinformation everywhere.  

[5thGenTexan]

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

Who’s wearing the patch, who’s working on their advancement, and who’s applying for the award? It’s time to educate them about this possible leeway in their program.

Seriously, this is not an adult’s problem. We need to spend a lot of time arranging safe travels, training for all manner of hazards, and putting coffee on in a timely fashion. These little quirks that arise because the advancement method has become verbose and complicated … they won’t bother us one way or the other. It’s the youth who know what each of them as done who will feel the emotional damage if they think either a) one of their peers took a shortcut because the SM was permissive or b) one of their peers was blocked for a technicality because the SM was restrictive.

Youth who know you respect their opinion will be youth who talk to you on weightier topics.

My daughter is SPL, she is Star, so working on Life and working on the Camping MB.  We started the Troop in 2019 so there is not a lot of experience for them to fall back on.  We sent 3 of the girls to ILST a couple of months ago, but they have yet to make it to NYLT.  My daughter is also 14 going on 17....  so, well... you know.  

 

[qwazse]

4 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

My daughter is SPL, she is Star, so working on Life and working on the Camping MB.  We started the Troop in 2019 so there is not a lot of experience for them to fall back on.  We sent 3 of the girls to ILST a couple of months ago, but they have yet to make it to NYLT.  My daughter is also 14 going on 17....  so, well... you know.  

 

What do I know? The only thing I’d worry about her might be that her parent gets advice  from strangers on the internet.
A troop with 3-going-on-4 years of experience and 3 ILST trained … they are ready for this.

It’s an advancement grey area, and the more this thread sits out there, the more we’ll find scouters who would treat this differently. It’s a big country. So, what really matters is how other scouts who she knows would like to be treated.

Let her and her other trained youth leaders decide how they would like adults to handle service-hour tallies in honest-to-goodness grey areas like this. If there are some boys they trust who lead another troop, they can loop them in on the discussion. As far as I can tell with the young women I’ve met: they want to be rated on an equal footing as we rate young men.