Native American Survey

[InquisitiveScouter]

13 minutes ago, malraux said:

I personally am ok with either path, even if I preference for one of them. A lot of the current approaches seems to very ad hoc instead of routinized. That might work for past times, but now one council or lodge being inappropriate can show up on YouTube and give the whole organization a black eye (micosay looking at you)

Neither the BSA nor the OA has a purpose or mission as a Native American Heritage Society.

I love what the OA is at heart, and it has nothing to do with any real Native American lore.

I say ditch it, and walk away.

Structure it around the colonial period and a call to service for freedom.  I can think my way through that set up easily.

Edited March 17, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[KublaiKen]

8 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Neither the BSA nor the OA has a purpose or mission as a Native American Heritage Society.

I love what the OA is at heart, and it has nothing to do with any real Native American lore.

I say ditch it, and walk away.

Structure it around the colonial period and a call to service for freedom.  I can think my way through that set up easily.

That was the essence of my responses to the survey. Any potential positive to the inclusion of NA elements is spitting into a tidal wave of the negative.

[malraux]

9 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Neither the BSA nor the OA has a purpose or mission as a Native American Heritage Society.

I love what the OA is at heart, and it has nothing to do with any real Native American lore.

I say ditch it, and walk away.

Structure it around the colonial period and a call to service for freedom.  I can think my way through that set up easily.

I also find the merger of scouting honor society and Native American historical society to be a poor fit. I can see why it worked in the past but imo it just doesn’t any more.

 

were I in charge with a magic wand, I’d rework the ceremonies and such around historic scouters (BP, seton, Goodman, green bar bill, etc). We’ve been around long enough to have our own history without having to borrow from someone else. 

[Jameson76]

Not to stir the pot too much, but

• I was triggered they referenced Native Americans and not First Nation, or indigenous, or First Nation indigenous.  Though First Nation may be a Canadian thing.
• Also, on the demographic questions at the end, only 2 sex choices, that is soooo 2015.  The survey folks need to take CIS merit badge apparently.

[Eagle1993]

4 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Neither the BSA nor the OA has a purpose or mission as a Native American Heritage Society.

I love what the OA is at heart, and it has nothing to do with any real Native American lore.

I say ditch it, and walk away.

Structure it around the colonial period and a call to service for freedom.  I can think my way through that set up easily.

Personally, I think we should go to leaders of the largest nations in the USA and ask them what we should consider doing.  I could see changing Indian Lore to be more about current native Americans.   Perhaps sharing use of camps for Pow wows.  Service projects in reservations.  etc.  Perhaps that could lead to NAs leaders also talking/teaching their history and other partnerships.

I would hate to see a complete break, but I do agree change is needed.

[InquisitiveScouter]

18 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Personally, I think we should go to leaders of the largest nations in the USA and ask them what we should consider doing.  I could see changing Indian Lore to be more about current native Americans.   Perhaps sharing use of camps for Pow wows.  Service projects in reservations.  etc.  Perhaps that could lead to NAs leaders also talking/teaching their history and other partnerships.

I would hate to see a complete break, but I do agree change is needed.

574 recognized tribes in US.  What about native Hawaiians??

https://www.usa.gov/tribes

What qualifies as a "largest nation"??

[skeptic]

If you have  received the survey, you should note that there are soptions that suggest some of what you suggest.  To me, it is very open and actually allowed me to give honest thoughts.  To me, it is most important to respect both local and far flung tribes and to always work with them locally.  We have had a number of visits from Chumash elders and they blessed our call out with a smoke ceremony in a few incidences.  The most care needs to be taken, IMHO, in learning as much as possible and NOT appropriate things without the involvement of the local tribes.  In regard to the Delaware, the initial tribe, the ceremonies may need serious review ans changes, and where possible maybe develop partner ceremonies for the local locations that reflect the originals if possible.  In regard to the MB, it is in need of serious rewrite, and that shoud include input from Nationl level Native groups so as to NOT overstep.  On the OA level, we need to FIX the poor ceremonial presentations that are far too common.  Certainly, if possible do NOT read ceremonial lines, and also be sure if regalia is in play that it is worn correctly and is not looked at as simply costume.

 

[HashTagScouts]

Regalia should imply a faithful reproduction of a Native American in attire they would wear in ceremonial events, whereas costuming should imply an attempt to represent what is perceived as Native American- often as day-to-day wear. Unfortunately, we've all too often mixed the two, and for anyone who has a firm historical understanding of Native Americans, all too often it has left some very caricature results. I don't believe there was intent in the hearts of most to do so, but it is appropriate to course correct when the differences become understood. Unfortunately, there has been little "policing" of regalia, and not a whole lot in the way of education to aide in the course correct. Our Section is on the fifth volunteer advisor, and I've lost count on how many have been in the staff advisor role, in five years. They are not spending time on what regalia each Lodge is using. The "mixed results" we see today are a problem, and one that needs some real effort to ever improve.

That they are asking questions in relation to Indian Lore MB doesn't surprise me. My own experience as a youth working on that MB at camp was discouraging in how pedantic the approach to "counseling" was, but I think many could say the same about a number of MBs earned at summer camps. I would prefer it was more structured into specifics, similar to how Citizenship in the Nation is- we give actual specifics we want the Scout to learn about in that badge, rather than a free-for-all. 

I had the sense this would be a broader review by the BSA. I don't take offense to a camp that bears a specific name of an actual Native American indigenous to the area the camp location, but fictitious names are an issue. Fictitious phrases/words that "sound native" are a problem too. I expect at minimum this is going to be a certainty that the BSA addresses as a result of this endeavor.  

[KublaiKen]

I do  not mean this as an insult, but there is nothing in my own personal experience with Scouting (I joined in 1975) that leads me to believe that BSA is the right organization to handle a sensitive issue like this successfully.  I mean that from National to local. I don't doubt that some professionals and volunteers could navigate this minefield successfully, but, again, my own personal experience leads me to disbelieve that such success would be across the board. I know National can't do it, and inconsistent results across councils or districts, or among different MBCs, will just cause BSA problems. I can think of a million ways I'd rather the organization spend its time and treasure than on trying to thread this needle, especially because I view it as being chiefly to appease adults, not youth. While I'd love for there to be a happy consensus of including NA elements into our program, I just don't see that happening.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

Here in Western PA one camp maintains the the pow-wow grounds for a tribe, who in turn provide cultural opportunities for the boys in camp.

Members of the Lenni Lenape regularly provide guidance on regalia.

How wonderful. 🙏

[HashTagScouts]

15 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

I do  not mean this as an insult, but there is nothing in my own personal experience with Scouting (I joined in 1975) that leads me to believe that BSA is the right organization to handle a sensitive issue like this successfully.  I mean that from National to local. I don't doubt that some professionals and volunteers could navigate this minefield successfully, but, again, my own personal experience leads me to disbelieve that such success would be across the board. I know National can't do it, and inconsistent results across councils or districts, or among different MBCs, will just cause BSA problems. I can think of a million ways I'd rather the organization spend its time and treasure than on trying to thread this needle, especially because I view it as being chiefly to appease adults, not youth. While I'd love for there to be a happy consensus of including NA elements into our program, I just don't see that happening.

National made a mistake IMO on forcing the issue to have every council have an OA Lodge. I was encouraged the question was asked if suspension of a Lodge is appropriate if they don't correctly follow policy. Resoundingly, I would say yes, every fraternal organization would take action if a local club/lodge/chapter was not following policy. Sadly, I don't see the BSA ever doing this. If they won't ever suspend a unit that they know is not following advancement policy correctly, doubtful they'd suddenly dig in when it comes to the OA and they'd just as soon end the OA. My free-form comments on the survey was do what they feel is necessary, but if taking out all of what is done today in the OA ceremonies, then let the Order of the Arrow end and give whatever comes after a new identity. Let the past be preserved, and let the future be an entirely new course.   

[Eagle1993]

51 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

574 recognized tribes in US.  What about native Hawaiians??

https://www.usa.gov/tribes

What qualifies as a "largest nation"??

Cherokee	729,533
Navajo	298,197
Latin American Indian	180,940
Choctaw	158,774
Sioux	153,360
Chippewa	149,669
Apache	96,833
Blackfeet	85,750
Iroquois	80,822
Pueblo	74,085

[InquisitiveScouter]

8 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Cherokee	729,533
Navajo	298,197
Latin American Indian	180,940
Choctaw	158,774
Sioux	153,360
Chippewa	149,669
Apache	96,833
Blackfeet	85,750
Iroquois	80,822
Pueblo	74,085

Got it, but you missed the point 😜

 

[Eagle1993]

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Got it, but you missed the point 😜

 

If National BSA would like to partner with Native Americans, they cannot go to 500+ different tribes.  They would need engagement & agreement from the largest Nations.  If they are on board and see benefit, then I think something can be done on the national level.  If this group isn't interested, then BSA is probably better off just breaking the relationship. 

 

The easier and more likely path is for BSA to simply stop all NA imagery.  Before doing that, I think reaching out to 10 leaders who represent nearly half of all Native Americans could provide an alternate solution.

[HashTagScouts]

43 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

If National BSA would like to partner with Native Americans, they cannot go to 500+ different tribes.  They would need engagement & agreement from the largest Nations.  If they are on board and see benefit, then I think something can be done on the national level.  If this group isn't interested, then BSA is probably better off just breaking the relationship. 

 

The easier and more likely path is for BSA to simply stop all NA imagery.  Before doing that, I think reaching out to 10 leaders who represent nearly half of all Native Americans could provide an alternate solution.

I've said to just about anyone wearing a sash for several years now- the only group you should need buy-in from is on of the tribes that is part of the Lenape heritage. Every lodge around the country is representing the Legend that is claiming to be of the Lenni Lenape, so we all should be using regalia that fits into a certain standard. At that point, anyone who has issue with what we are doing has issues not so much with us, but with the group that was the inspiration for all of it.