Native American Survey

[Eagle_Chris]

The OA seems to operate on a lot of nostalgia and adults who cite the way things used to be.  My sons, who both completed their Ordeal, both said it seemed like a clique, and both opted not to do brotherhood - preferring to focus their time with their friends in the Troop.

With the limited funding and volunteers the BSA has, it needs to simplify itself and focus on its core priority - the Scouts in the Troops.

As the survey questions listed there are many areas in the OA that need to be reviewed to ensure respect and honor.

A significant revamp is needed, or starting new.

[Eagle1993]

17 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

I've said to just about anyone wearing a sash for several years now- the only group you should need buy-in from is on of the tribes that is part of the Lenape heritage. Every lodge around the country is representing the Legend that is claiming to be of the Lenni Lenape, so we all should be using regalia that fits into a certain standard. At that point, anyone who has issue with what we are doing has issues not so much with us, but with the group that was the inspiration for all of it. 

So if Brad KillsCrow told BSA to stop using NA references in OA, we should stop?  What has his input been? 

 

[Eagle1993]

13 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

So if Brad KillsCrow told BSA to stop using NA references in OA, we should stop?  What has his input been? 

 

 This was passed and signed March 2022.  This is where I struggle.  The Lenape elected officials are asking groups to stop.  Now, this document doesn't specifically call out OA, but I have a guess what they would say.

 

 

Res-2022-08 (1).pdf

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

Yes, one could take the narrow view that the resolution talks about schools and OA isn't a school so it doesn't apply, but that doesn't seem to be in the spirit of being friendly, courteous, kind, brave, and reverent.

Shouldn't we reach out to the Lenni-Lenape government to confirm? If they do indeed say "please stop guys", then... I think we are bound by our own values to do so, and muster the energy to meet that emotional difficulty with bravery and cheerfulness.

[yknot]

19 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Yes, one could take the narrow view that the resolution talks about schools and OA isn't a school so it doesn't apply, but that doesn't seem to be in the spirit of being friendly, courteous, kind, brave, and reverent.

Shouldn't we reach out to the Lenni-Lenape government to confirm? If they do indeed say "please stop guys", then... I think we are bound by our own values to do so, and muster the energy to meet that emotional difficulty with bravery and cheerfulness.

One of the issues is that there is no central "government" for many of these groups. There is controversy and disagreement within the NA community about who is or is not in a position to speak on these issues. There is no consensus, so the issue for BSA all along has been that it cannot truthfully claim that it has the permission or the blessing of any group to continue its questionable practices. There is no centralized, universally recognized group equivalent to a national government. This has not changed over the hundreds of years that Europeans have been interacting with native Americans but the BSA and its iterations like OA and Mic-O-Say still believe they can validate their traditions in this manner. 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

If there is no consensus, then it seems that the only way to show kindness and compassion for the whole painful situation is to steer clear of incorporating all Indian heritage. It might be more than necessary, but it is clear. And it might well be necessary.

Either way, it seems like a situation where the action needed is clear without the details of the situation having to be. If we are kind, then we don't twist an old dagger that's still in a wound. 

[skeptic]

While I surely agree we need to review and in many instances adjust our approach, I do not see this being as great an issue as some are tyring to make it.  Again, there are numerous examples of tribes working to display their customs and histories with others, both within and without the Native American groups.  And there are many example of non NA individuals honoring customs and history , often with the support of local tribes.  Once again, we cannot rewrite history, good or bad.  But we can adjust and find shared interests and efforts to recognize and honor.  We seem to have many suggesting that any study and hands on cultural study and sharing by non NA is somehow wrong.  That is foolish and gains nothing but stress and misunderstaanding.  Do we simply somehow erase all the history prior to a certain time, including that dealing with the intertribes and their treatment of others?  Do we destroy all the early "westerns" that are poorly made in regard to NA culture and history?  Most who review this issue likely understand that it is a evolving discussion.  Many of us grew up when the stories of the Indians and White man conflicts was common and often the subject of B movies and yes, cowboys and indians.  I hope most of us of that generation also can recognize much of the real errors of that period and can adjust.  That includes the NA culture as well I would profer.  Learn from history and adjust to make the future better and more cohesive across cultures and ethnic groups.  That is why we study the past, or should be, in my view.  And this suggestion extends beyond the immediate discucssion to other cultural groups and so on.  We need to get back to the melting pot idea.

 

[skeptic]

As an addin.  Much of my early knowledge and views of Native Americans came from the generation of which I spoke above.  But, I was an avid reader of good historical novels, as well as off the wall bits of history.  That on occasion, with the better writers, touched on realities and inequities, but also on real intercultural mixing.  Then when I took two courses in NA History, as well as an anthro course on NA language connections, I finally began understanding better.  Episodes of cultural history can happen instantaeously, but the real picture takes dcades and longer.

 

[Mrjeff]

I agree, the decision has already been made. It was made by a committee of self serving adults without regard to what the youth members want.  Nobody at any level has ever answered any direct questions about anything.  Even face to face those people answer with nonsense and vague information.  Exactly who are the native Americans who object?  What particular tribe do they represent?  What standing do they have within their tribe?  Are they acting with authority of tribal leaders?  If these questions could be addressed there could be validity in these concerns.  Or maybe the BSA  is worried that native Americans have claims to the Summit property or Philmont and they're afraid if they do something the BSA  will loose those assets.   

[BetterWithCheddar]

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I was never really comfortable using Native American imagery as a youth in the OA. I also attended a college that used a Native American athletics mascot - same deal there.

I'm hardly the PC-type, but neither felt right and I still avoid the use of certain logos out of respect for individuals who may not be accurately represented by the OA- and NCAA-sanctioned symbolism.

Again - not trying to make waves, but I suspect there is a silent majority on the issue who are largely indifferent, but (if pressed) would prefer to move on to something less likely to offend or draw criticism.

[mrjohns2]

14 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

It was made by a committee of self serving adults without regard to what the youth members want.

Interesting as the youth members of my troop want the Native American imagery removed. 

Edited March 19, 2023 by mrjohns2

[yknot]

4 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I was never really comfortable using Native American imagery as a youth in the OA. I also attended a college that used a Native American athletics mascot - same deal there.

I'm hardly the PC-type, but neither felt right and I still avoid the use of certain logos out of respect for individuals who may not be accurately represented by the OA- and NCAA-sanctioned symbolism.

Again - not trying to make waves, but I suspect there is a silent majority on the issue who are largely indifferent, but (if pressed) would prefer to move on to something less likely to offend or draw criticism.

I think you are in the majority. This perspective is part of the curriculum and/or character education programs in a lot of public schools today, maybe most, beginning at the early elementary grades and has been for at least 10 years. Kids who learn one level of awareness in the school and community setting are frequently uncomfortable with the different viewpoints and practices that they encounter in the scouting environment. We went from having a handful of OA candidates each year to having zero for the last several I was involved. The NA aspect wasn't a draw, it was a deterrent as far as we experienced. 

[KublaiKen]

25 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Interesting as the youth members of my troop want the Native American imagery removed. 

This. I am sure sentiment varies widely among Scouts, among adults, and among areas of the country, perhaps, but I only know of only one Scout for whom it is a draw (not my Troop or even Chapter). For many it is met with disbelief and disapproval.

[malraux]

Also, when you look at a youth’s first few experiences with the oa, it really does show a very specific aspect of the program. The call out and the ordeal happening together really do make it seem like the oa is primarily about lots of mediocre quality cosplay. Making it through all of that to the service and leadership society can be tough. 

[Eagle94-A1]

3 hours ago, malraux said:

The call out and the ordeal happening together really do make it seem like the oa is primarily about lots of mediocre quality cosplay. Making it through all of that to the service and leadership society can be tough. 

depends upon the lodge and/or chapter. I have seen some extremely hi quality regalia used.