What does one need to do to avoid being proselytized to at district-level events?

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

It makes perfect sense to me that BP wouldn't have meant the Christian God exclusively and/or hyperspecifically, at least not for long, given the general context of the times and his life's work and speeches. It's also kind of how I intuitively interpreted all the miscellaneous mentions of God in old songs and such as a child, including for example the Swedish Scout Song. "(Till Gud, kung och fosterland...") Just like singing that line is not an oath of personal fealty to the current king, having a duty to God isn't so tightly or literally defined in practice. The phrase is historical but is pointing at something more universal, like you say. The vagueness is actually an advantage IMO - you have to really think about it. That makes the end result really yours.

I checked on my perception that God with a capital G refers specifically to the Christian God as opposed to god without one meaning any and/or an unspecified god, and while at least some online sources seem to share this division it still doesn't make sense to use that to say BP was only talking the Christian God or at widest the Abrahamic God. (The top hit was https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/God)

I will, however, not invite the Jehovah's Witnesses in to ask, although I have to admit I'm curious about not just that but that I guess they don't see themselves as Christian? I have all kinds of questions about them I will take to my grave.

One shouldn't take the phrasing "duty to God" too seriously in my personal opinion, but it's evident that it has caused confusion all the same. I and most other Europeans also have the luxury of no longer needing to worry about losing our rights and freedoms because of the Church, so it's easy to give a generous, inclusive reading when you have nothing to fear. I might not have felt the same when I would have faced torture for not believing in the Christian God, and I am definitely more sensitive to it in the US. But be that as it may, the wind in the scouting movement's sail is the power behind discovering how those universal human values feel when you proclaim them and live by them. 

🙇🏼‍♀️🙏

[SSScout]

"Nobody expects the Spanish INQUISITION."

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

"The Spanish Inquisition would never have worked with the Church of England"

(from Eddie Izzard's bit Dress to Kill)

Thank you for flying Church of England, cake or death?

 

 

[Mrjeff]

On 3/14/2023 at 1:00 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Just curious... why the downvote @Scouterlockport??

The down vote is simply because it isn't politically.  I agree with explanation %100

[Scouterlockport]

20 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

The down vote is simply because it isn't politically.  I agree with explanation %100

Thanks for adding a lot to the discussion a month or so after everyone else. My reason for the down voice is that this wonderful organization is not going to survive if we keep requiring people to have a religous creed to join in a growing non religious nation. Just like modernizing by adding female scouts, we need to look at requiring a relationship to god. Less and less people are openly religious and the advantage of those charter organizations is going away forever.

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 hours ago, Scouterlockport said:

Thanks for adding a lot to the discussion a month or so after everyone else. My reason for the down voice is that this wonderful organization is not going to survive if we keep requiring people to have a religous creed to join in a growing non religious nation. Just like modernizing by adding female scouts, we need to look at requiring a relationship to god. Less and less people are openly religious and the advantage of those charter organizations is going away forever.

Understood.  Ever hear of the phrase "shooting the messenger"??

 

[Eagledad]

On 3/17/2023 at 8:34 PM, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

. But be that as it may, the wind in the scouting movement's sail is the power behind discovering how those universal human values feel when you proclaim them and live by them. 

Very interesting discussion. We live in a challenging time where god, or I think the Christian God, is being persecuted. Just in a 10 minute time after reading this post, I read in the news where the courts are forcing a school to rehire a teacher based on her Christian religious beliefs, and a state congress member was caught hiding bibles in the congressional private chambers. So, acknowledging God, or god, as a source for discovery might become more of a secret.

I once heard that all people believe in god, some just don't like him. I'm starting think he is right.

But, the challenge, as I have stated before, is how does one compare universal human values without standard point of reference or datum line to compare against. How does one know what Friendly, Courteous and Kind are in character if everyone has a different view? I heard it said that character is the basis for integrity. If everyone has a different definition of character, is that really a universal? What becomes of integrity? Seems to me, a single basis of morality is what universally ties us all together in humanity.

Logically at this point in time, a belief in God, or god, is not the reason for a declining BSA membership. The BSA has a lot of hurdles to get around to maintain it's existence, but religion isn't one of them at the moment. If National starts down that path, it will be for political self interest. Look at what that did for the Canadian scouts in the 90s. Taking god out of scouting will take far more youth out of scouting than it would gain. The organization might eventually catch up in a couple generations, but why go through the pain?

Barry

[seattlecyclone]

7 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Logically at this point in time, a belief in God, or god, is not the reason for a declining BSA membership. The BSA has a lot of hurdles to get around to maintain it's existence, but religion isn't one of them at the moment.

How do you figure? Gallup polling says that only 36% of Millennials (i.e. most of today's parents of Cub Scouts) belonged to any church (or synagogue, mosque, other religious organization) in 2020. Compare that to when I was a Scout in the 1990s, and 67% of our Baby Boomer parents belonged to a congregation at that time. That's half as many families to draw from, at least easily. For the now-majority who don't belong to an organized religion, a "duty to God" requirement is something that is a non-starter for a lot of families. It's something that many of the rest of us might put up with, and do some mental gymnastics around, in order to get all the other good stuff out of the program. It's not something that most of us parents actively embrace anymore.

[Eagledad]

18 minutes ago, seattlecyclone said:

How do you figure? Gallup polling says that only 36% of Millennials (i.e. most of today's parents of Cub Scouts) belonged to any church (or synagogue, mosque, other religious organization) in 2020. Compare that to when I was a Scout in the 1990s, and 67% of our Baby Boomer parents belonged to a congregation at that time. That's half as many families to draw from, at least easily. For the now-majority who don't belong to an organized religion, a "duty to God" requirement is something that is a non-starter for a lot of families. It's something that many of the rest of us might put up with, and do some mental gymnastics around, in order to get all the other good stuff out of the program. It's not something that most of us parents actively embrace anymore.

Non starter? Show me that polling data.

Don’t worry, you’re safe we know there isn’t any. Personal declarations of why a National organizations will to this or do that are rarely accurate. Personal predictions on forums usually come from emotional blurps.

Fact and reason is religion isn’t a basis for why families join scouting. Most families just want their kids to have fun in Cubs. The Duty to god question comes at a later age in troops and by that time, the scout has already made a decision whether to stay or leave. Religion has little do with it. It’s that simple.

if the BSA wants to improve membership, they need to figure out how to keep the 9 and 10 year olds from leaving. But, that is a different discussion.

Barry

[seattlecyclone]

 

14 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Non starter? Show me that polling data.

I have no polling data. I do have a bunch of friends my age, who are parents, who don't belong to churches and aren't including any notion of God in their kid's upbringing. Many of these folks would love to bring their kids into an organization that instills values of independence, leadership, respect for the outdoors, service to the community, and all the other good things Scouting teaches.

But if you tell them that membership in this particular organization also requires their kid to regularly swear on their honor that they will do their duty to God (what God? what duty? their family believes in no such thing!), that's something that will make them look elsewhere.

 

14 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

The Duty to god question comes at a later age in troops...

That is false. The topic comes up from the very beginning. For my kid to earn his Tiger rank this year he is required to "discuss what it means to do your duty to God" and two of (attend a church service, earn a religious emblem, do a community service project that is part of one's duty to God, or carry out an act of kindness that shows duty to God).

For that 64% of Millennial families who don't belong to a church, the religious service attendance and religious emblem requirements aren't likely to happen, and the others just seem contrived. If your parents are teaching you that there's probably no such thing as a God and you probably don't owe any particular duty to a non-existent entity, what are you actually supposed to do to meet this requirement?

[Mrjeff]

13 hours ago, Scouterlockport said:

Thanks for adding a lot to the discussion a month or so after everyone else. My reason for the down voice is that this wonderful organization is not going to survive if we keep requiring people to have a religous creed to join in a growing non religious nation. Just like modernizing by adding female scouts, we need to look at requiring a relationship to god. Less and less people are openly religious and the advantage of those charter organizations is going away forever.

You're welcome for my input.  In reality the BSA does require an acknowledgement that there is a higher being and that the individual has a relationship.  Therefore if someone disagrees and refuses this concept then they need to go play in another sandbox.  The BSA is a private club that requires an application and a fee.  Just like every other club, if you don't like the rules, go someplace else or start your own club with your own rules.  The BSA is so far removed from what it once was its hardly recognizable.  Look at the broad picture and its easy to see that the BSA wants to be accessible to everyone and this accessibility it eating the BSA alive.

[DannyG]

The existence of God is a belief. All you must have to complete the requirements is a belief in something. It does not matter if you pray to God, Yahweh, Allah... Buddhists do not believe in a singular god, yet Buddhist scouts have been recognized for decades and can earn a religious emblem.  The emblems are off-limits unless you belong to an established faith, but there other activities that can be done to complete the requirements .

I had a conversation with a Cub Scout parent who does not follow any established religion. I wondered how they were able to complete the Duty to God requirements. He confided his sole belief is humanity has a innate desire to do good for each other. He has no belief in a God, nor a creator, nor Heaven and angels, etc...  Yet he loved doing the activities with his children since it required doing a community service and explaining how it fits the family's belief. It opened up conversations about why they need to do good, since they didn't have any regular service to attend or anything else to do to bring it to mind. He said it was his favorite activity to complete every year.

Isn't this the whole purpose of Duty to God? To do good and bring scouts closer to their belief? Scouts organizations need to decide if they want to have these children, or shut them out completely because it does not fit some standard definition of what God is.

[seattlecyclone]

@DannyG Seems to me like "duty to fellow humans" would be a much more appropriate phrase for this family you mentioned and the way they interpret the "duty to God" requirements. For them it has nothing to do with forming a relationship with any divine being, and everything to do with teaching their kid about the importance of helping other people. There's a certain amount of mental gymnastics that needs to happen for an atheist to convince themselves that they can fulfill the spirit of the requirements despite a lack of any belief in a higher power. This family you mentioned is perfectly willing to do that, others are not.

I just think we need to recognize that a lot of families are uninterested in joining a club that officially doesn't want them as a member. The number of these people we're excluding is growing rather than shrinking over time. At the same time we're seeing organized religions such as the LDS church distance themselves from BSA. Where does that leave us?

[Armymutt]

19 minutes ago, seattlecyclone said:

At the same time we're seeing organized religions such as the LDS church distance themselves from BSA. Where does that leave us?

I'm thinking that's a bit of circular logic.  Modifications were made that resulted in the exclusion of a large group which was not replaced by members of the targeted group.  I'm not sure that further modifications are guaranteed to bring in more members than to result in less members.

[Mrjeff]

No duty to God is not the same as duty to other humans.  Its not hard to understand duty to God unless your trying to make it into something else which seems to be the modern trend.