What does one need to do to avoid being proselytized to at district-level events?

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

31 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Brother, I wholeheartedly encourage you to practice your faith as you see fit.

If any Scout, Scouter, or person has a problem with it, then they are being un-Scoutlike.

BTW, have you seen the Buddhist Sangha Award for youth??  (Metta for Cub Scouts...)

Or the Bodhi Award for adults?

I agree that it would be unscoutlike, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen, so it's helpful to hear at least one American scouter affirm that basic view. The wall of Christianity is intimidating sometimes, especially in view of US society as a whole, even though I know very well that the scouting movement explicitly isn't a Christian movement. There clearly are a lot of people who want to make it one, and it's hard to tell how well they've succeeded. Had a lot of them systematically not left the BSA already I don't think I would have dared pick Cub Scouts over Brownies or whatever the young scouts in GSUSA are called. 

I did see the religious awards, and we just threw a sangha party to celebrate that my scout earned theirs! I'm quite proud actually, that was a lot of material to get through. I had to start with bribes of tea and cookies like they give the littlest nuns candies during sadhanas, but then the interest in the life of the Buddha took over and the cookie-eating pace slowed significantly, and then they wanted to finish the whole thing up through his paranirvana even though it wasn't required for the award.

When we went to our center in uniforms to help open the shrines and participate in an adult public sit for the first time we flushed out a number of old scouts, all of whom were surprised that the BSA has anything for Buddhists. 

The WOSM adult friendship scarf is white with a purple edge, which says "Making a Better World". It so happens that when you thank a teacher for teaching in our lineage, you offer them a white scarf as a symbol of your primordial buddhanature, the ultimate totality of what you (and also they and everything else) are. So, since the friendship scarf is also white and the edge message is not coincidentally similar to our socially engaged vision of creating enlightened society, I blessed and offered one to the senior teacher who oversaw my creation of the curriculum details. She also is an old scout, so that seems doubly appropriate. She also just left on a pilgrimage to see our current lineage head, so instead of the customary champagne toast to the lineage I blessed an extra one for him to send with her as an offering. ⚜️☸️ Hoping we can let more people in the mahasangha know about the possibility of Buddhist scouting.

Thank you very much for your support! Although, I'm your sister ☺️

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

1 hour ago, HashTagScouts said:

We have CO's here in MA that are Buddhist. You may even want to contact them for advice on handling interaction with other faith traditions in a Scouting context.

https://sites.google.com/bliascouts.org/blia-scouts-boston

 

I am a deist that doesn't believe that God is a metaphysical entity in the way that Abrahamic religions do, or that it is even possible for humans to ever comprehend such an entity, but respect the right of others to believe as they do. As such, I generally do not participate in Scout's Own services but I will stand in silence out of respect to others during grace at mealtime. 

I think I will contact them, thanks! I would love to strengthen our mahasangha by simply connecting. I know BCA has done a lot for Buddhist scouting. Bobby Tanaka with the National Buddhist Committee on Scouting is amazing. Actually, I should talk to him too.

Wait, they pray Christian prayers before meals, too? Well, at least there we have a form I could ask to substitute, our lineage meal chant or Plum Village's meal gatha.

[HashTagScouts]

1 minute ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I think I will contact them, thanks! I would love to strengthen our mahasangha by simply connecting. I know BCA has done a lot for Buddhist scouting. Bobby Tanaka with the National Buddhist Committee on Scouting is amazing. Actually, I should talk to him too.

Wait, they pray Christian prayers before meals, too? Well, at least there we have a form I could ask to substitute, our lineage meal chant or Plum Village's meal gatha.

When it comes to grace, it takes all forms. The summer camp my son attended one year had a dining hall steward that used only Native American prayers for grace. Another year they had a dining hall steward that only asked people to bow their heads for a moment of silence. Generally, I've never experienced any moment in Scouting where grace was said that went beyond what is found in the Philmont Grace:

For food, for raiment,
For life, for opportunity,
For friendship and fellowship,
We thank thee, O Lord. Amen.

[seattlecyclone]

I won't lie, participating in BSA events as a non-Christian can be uncomfortable at times. I remember as a youth being taken with the rest of my unit to Sunday-morning "non-denominational" (but still Christian / Protestant) services at camporees and also at Philmont. Though that was more than 20 years ago now, I imagine there are still districts and councils that put on similar programming today. I didn't get the impression from my unit leaders at the time that attending such things was optional. You would do well as a leader to make sure the non-Christian youth in your unit feel empowered to skip the Christian services to reflect in their own way.

[InquisitiveScouter]

48 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I agree that it would be unscoutlike, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen, so it's helpful to hear at least one American scouter affirm that basic view. The wall of Christianity is intimidating sometimes, especially in view of US society as a whole, even though I know very well that the scouting movement explicitly isn't a Christian movement. There clearly are a lot of people who want to make it one, and it's hard to tell how well they've succeeded. Had a lot of them systematically not left the BSA already I don't think I would have dared pick Cub Scouts over Brownies or whatever the young scouts in GSUSA are called. 

I did see the religious awards, and we just threw a sangha party to celebrate that my scout earned theirs! I'm quite proud actually, that was a lot of material to get through. I had to start with bribes of tea and cookies like they give the littlest nuns candies during sadhanas, but then the interest in the life of the Buddha took over and the cookie-eating pace slowed significantly, and then they wanted to finish the whole thing up through his paranirvana even though it wasn't required for the award.

When we went to our center in uniforms to help open the shrines and participate in an adult public sit for the first time we flushed out a number of old scouts, all of whom were surprised that the BSA has anything for Buddhists. 

The WOSM adult friendship scarf is white with a purple edge, which says "Making a Better World". It so happens that when you thank a teacher for teaching in our lineage, you offer them a white scarf as a symbol of your primordial buddhanature, the ultimate totality of what you (and also they and everything else) are. So, since the friendship scarf is also white and the edge message is not coincidentally similar to our socially engaged vision of creating enlightened society, I blessed and offered one to the senior teacher who oversaw my creation of the curriculum details. She also is an old scout, so that seems doubly appropriate. She also just left on a pilgrimage to see our current lineage head, so instead of the customary champagne toast to the lineage I blessed an extra one for him to send with her as an offering. ⚜️☸️ Hoping we can let more people in the mahasangha know about the possibility of Buddhist scouting.

Thank you very much for your support! Although, I'm your sister ☺️

OK, sister!!

A correction... BSA has nothing for Buddhists, nor any other religion.  Religious emblems are offered by private organizations from various faiths.  When a Scout earns one, BSA recognizes the achievement with a knot.

To get an award, you must contact those non-BSA organizations:

https://www.scouting.org/awards/religious-awards/chart/

Scouts may earn different awards.

After receiving an Award, you may get the knot to wear (in place of the award medal) from your Scout Service center. 

 https://www.scoutshop.org/nsearch/?q=religious+knot

Scouts who have earned different awards wear the same knot. 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

1 hour ago, seattlecyclone said:

I won't lie, participating in BSA events as a non-Christian can be uncomfortable at times.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

This obviously isn't what I was hoping to hear (I was of course hoping that my concern was overblown or that times had changed), but one does after all need to be prepared ⚜️☺️ Now I know we do need to have talk about this in a few years, or - quelle horreur! - next month before day camp. I will call the council to ask about religion at day camp so I know.

If I end up continuing as a Scouts BSA leader if/when my scout crosses over, I absolutely will emphasize that any and all religious expression and practice at scouting events is 100% optional. 

[seattlecyclone]

The type of "talk" you're referring to can be unavoidable as part of raising a non-Christian kid in American society. There will be occasions in America where you may find yourself one of a very small number of non-Christians in a group, and the leaders of the group therefore feel empowered to begin a meeting or a meal with a short Christian (or at least Abrahamic/monotheistic) prayer. Phrases such as "one nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance and "In God We Trust" on our currency are well-established pieces of our "secular" society, as much as many of us may find such things non-inclusive or offensive. It's rude in the moment to interrupt such prayers. Talking to the person in charge afterward about your discomfort with their public prayer can be a delicate conversation. Navigating these situations with grace is absolutely something you'll need to teach your kid at some point, whether they remain in BSA or no.

I have found a Cub Scout pack for my son that doesn't do that sort of thing, and it sounds like you have as well, but when you go to events organized at a higher level you may unfortunately find yourself exposed to this aspect of American culture.

[sierracharliescouter]

I'm in a very diverse unit, in a somewhat diverse, but still heavily Christian district. I'm Jewish, which is a tiny minority in these parts.

In general, our district events are kept truly non-denominational, and we generally guide scouts leading events like Scouts Own to use non-denominational content. They do a good job with that, but every so often a scout or adult will slip in a "in Jesus' name we pray" at the end of what they are saying. I don't take any offense at at that, because I know that is part of how they personally are used to saying prayers. Would I prefer if they didn't say that part? Sure, but I'm tolerant, as a Scout should be, and it isn't worth taking offensive over. I don't leap to consider that proselytizing.

Funny Philmont story. I was the adult advisor. Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Sikh, Muslim, and one that was non-theist, all in the same crew. Visually, also very obviously diverse group. Our ranger starts to ask us if we want to attend a Philmont religious service to fulfill part of the Duty to God patch requirement. I asked, what is the service based on? Well, only the Catholic service was available that day. I looked around at the scouts with an inquisitive eyebrow raised, the scouts looked at the ranger, and the ranger said "I guess that'll be a no".

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

6 minutes ago, seattlecyclone said:

Navigating these situations with grace is absolutely something you'll need to teach your kid at some point, whether they remain in BSA or no.

I hadn't considered this. I cannot fathom starting a business meeting with a prayer.

Unfortunately for my child perhaps, I don't have very much experience navigating these situations with grace myself. It isn't a needed skill in Sweden, and in the US I hadn't experienced any until I moved to the South, and my method for dealing with it is avoidance. It probably helps that I work with people from all over the Earth and so it is plainly never a good assumption that most people present are Christian. The few times when it's happened I am so taken by surprise that this is really happening that I feel like a deer in headlights. Once I can run away I do. But that obviously isn't handling it with grace.

Any tips?

[HashTagScouts]

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I hadn't considered this. I cannot fathom starting a business meeting with a prayer.

Unfortunately for my child perhaps, I don't have very much experience navigating these situations with grace myself. It isn't a needed skill in Sweden, and in the US I hadn't experienced any until I moved to the South, and my method for dealing with it is avoidance. It probably helps that I work with people from all over the Earth and so it is plainly never a good assumption that most people present are Christian. The few times when it's happened I am so taken by surprise that this is really happening that I feel like a deer in headlights. Once I can run away I do. But that obviously isn't handling it with grace.

Any tips?

Encourage them to handle themselves showing respect - that can be just drawing themselves to the back and standing silently while others do their thing, explaining if anyone inquires that they practice a different faith but did not want to be a distraction to others. Hopefully they will find some that are open to asking them to help to make any future observance more interfaith, where your child can share some of their own religious practices. I've not had too many experiences of folks ever questioning my actions when it comes to religious expression, and I hope that you and your family are always shown the same respect. As long as you help them to not go into seizures if they experience someone of a different faith practicing that faith, and be prepared to explain why they believe differently, I like to hope they will be fine. If the unit they intend to join has a Scouter that is the unit Chaplain, engage with them. If they have awareness that your scout observes their faith differently than other scouts in the troop, they may have some suggestions on what the typical occurrences that the troop holds Scouts' Own, or wha the routine at camp typically is, etc. that can help you and your child prepare.   

Edited March 15, 2023 by HashTagScouts

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

22 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

As long as you help them to not go into seizures if they experience someone of a different faith practicing that faith, and be prepared to explain why they believe differently, I like to hope they will be fine.

Maybe it's as traumatic for them as it is for me if they have seizures! 😂

I'm a bit worried about the explaining aspect in a BSA context also, because of the very strong anti-atheist vibe. One can mean slightly different things by 'atheist', of course, but when the answer to "are you a theist" is "no" even in a scholarly, not just personal, sense, I can see that going south based on what I've seen on the Internet. If someone asks point-blank if my scout believes in any creator deity, they're going to have to say no, and then I think all hell will break loose and my scout may well get kicked out.

Hopefully I'm wrong about that.

[SSScout]

WELLLLL,    Old compooter died, new compooter finally up and humming.  Had to sign in "new".

AES:   Some folks are just that way. Please find the grace to forgive them, and learn from whatever lesson they teach.  Maybe it applies, maybe it doesn't in your case.  So be it. 

Did you hear about the agnostic, dyslexic, insomniac ?   Poor fellow lay awake all night wondering if there is a dog.....

Bada bum bum....

As our District's resident Chaplain , I discuss (I try to not say "teach") "Reverent" at our IOLS sessions.  It is sometimes hard to get thru to some folks.  Is there room in the Scout tent for all faiths? Or lack of them? I like to think so. The Bible starts from a  vengeful, violent god to a forgiving, peace seeking son's example.  Much of the Bagahvad gita is similar.  And the Torah.  I like to think we are improving as a species, but only time will tell....

At the Nat Jam when I attended , I often came upon a Scout or two who espoused the idea that "mmmm, I'm not too sure about this God stuff."  Yep, me too.  But I keep finding things (miracles? Ways opening?  Still small voice?) that insist on some "higher power" being there.  

"Scout's Own"  should be just that. If it is "taken over " by any ordained clergy of any faith, it ain't a "Scout's Own".   On the rare occasion (Camporee?)  I am asked to arrange a sunday observance , I ask the Troops attending to send me their "Chaplain's Aides" , if they have one, or any interested Scout. We meet, I tell them, this is up to you Scouts. I will help as you want, but Here's my Bible, here's the Torah (in English ! where did I get that?), here is the "Sample" S's O I present at IOLS.  You design it. And they never fail to please me (and confound some adults?).   If I can figure out how to attach/transfer old files to this new compooter, I'll do 'er.   

[5thGenTexan]

Scouts Own Service.  Scout Sunday,.  etc.

I handle it this way....  Smile and wave... Smile and wave....   

Our Unit had Scout Sunday a couple of weekends ago at our former CO, a FUMC.  It was the first Sunday of the month and therefore it was the Sunday they did Communion.  It was awkward for our family sitting there in Uniform while everyone else in the building got up and went down to the front, even some of our Scout families.  

I havent had anyone made an issue of anything before.  So...

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

@SSScout Thank you for your reply. I'm glad to hear that your new computer is running! That's always a chore.

It's interesting to hear your perspective as someone who actively works with this issue. I guess I shouldn't be surprised to find passion, aggression and ignorance in samsara 😂 Round and round the wheel spins! So vows would be relevant here then, I suppose. Seeing if perhaps someone needs a ride to the other shore. 

It also sounds like adults aren't supposed to be running religious ceremonies at camporees in the first place, did I understand that correctly? It did sound funny that Scout's Own be done by not a current scout.

Might I ask, what is the point of a Scout's Own?

[fred8033]

17 hours ago, seattlecyclone said:

I won't lie, participating in BSA events as a non-Christian can be uncomfortable at times. I remember as a youth being taken with the rest of my unit to Sunday-morning "non-denominational" (but still Christian / Protestant) services at camporees and also at Philmont. 

From what I've seen lately, camporee non-denominational services have devolved into extremely wishy washy and borderline offensive to those with a faith.  Our unit ended up making the scouts aware and encouraging those who's family practiced that faith.  BUT, it was always the scout's choice if they went or not.  Half went.  Half stayed in camp.

"can be uncomfortable at times" ... Reminds me of high school pep rallies for the sports teams.  I was not on a sports team and not really a sports fan.  Sitting thru those events were painful, annoying and offensive.