What does one need to do to avoid being proselytized to at district-level events?

[seattlecyclone]

24 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I'm thinking that's a bit of circular logic.  Modifications were made that resulted in the exclusion of a large group which was not replaced by members of the targeted group.  I'm not sure that further modifications are guaranteed to bring in more members than to result in less members.

The LDS church was never "excluded" from Scouting. They chose to leave on their own. Regardless, the BSA continues to welcome any LDS-member individual who wishes to join a unit chartered by an organization outside of their church.

But you're right, any change is likely to push away some number of people while it also brings in some other number of people, and it's certainly possible that distancing from the "Duty to God" concept could result in a long-term reduction in membership.

Edited April 26, 2023 by seattlecyclone

[Eagledad]

25 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I'm thinking that's a bit of circular logic.  Modifications were made that resulted in the exclusion of a large group which was not replaced by members of the targeted group.  I'm not sure that further modifications are guaranteed to bring in more members than to result in less members.

That is my point, the program would loose more membership by bringing in another smaller targeted group.

The Canadian Scouts change to be more inclusive and as a result, they lost nearly 50% of their membership. The only reason they survived is they were the biggest scouting program in the world at the time. They are OK with that because being inclusive is more important to them than being developers of moral and ethical decision makers.

Without a moral starting place, a compass so to speak, the program would not have a values vision to hold a program direction for the youth. It would morph into an youth entertainment program with no higher purpose and high lability. It would die of boredom.

Of course I believe the program is at rock bottom now, so I'm not sure it can survive anyway.

Barry

[AltadenaCraig]

If I'm welcome, I'd like to add my $.02.  I find myself of two minds on this topic.  On the one hand, between the Unitarians, Scientologists, Buddhists, and Humanistic Jews (among other sects) - all of which are welcome in Scouting (and have their own BSA-Approved Religious Emblems) though none observes a deity resembling the God of Abraham - if one can't find a spiritual home in that landscape then I expect it's not the BSA that's being exclusionary.

On the other hand, the "Duty to God" program has somewhat puzzled me since it's introduction about the same time the BSA allowed for gay scouters.  It appeared more a concession to anxious adults than a celebration of something bigger than oneself.  To be sure, the phrase is "to do my duty to God and my country ..."  Did "duty to country" fall out of favor?  If they'd initiated a "Duty to God & Country" program it would've at least resembled the Oath.  Limiting it to "Duty to God", however, resembled someone's agenda.

[Cburkhardt]

I believe the declaration of religious principles as actually observed within the BSA is effective and appropriate.  Those of us who have been deeply engaged for decades in promoting the operations and quality of the BSA have gone through many cycles of discussion and sometimes conflict regarding what the BSA should or should not do as its unpaid volunteers offer program to young people.  I read through this thread and congratulate many for the low key and relatively accepting postings on a topic that has sometimes elicited rage.

The BSA is sufficiently large and diverse to function as a proxy for American society -- with the exception that it focuses on the lives of young people.  It is because we are so large and embracing of the broader world that families listen to what we have to say.  The degree of interest in having the BSA adopt or discontinue practices is very high because we actually cause change in people’s lives.

Part of being effective and happy as a volunteer in the BSA is understanding your capabilities, interests and concerns and blending with them into the BSA as a generally tolerant person.  What I have never seen work successfully is for a person to join the BSA with a particular viewpoint and go about trying to narrow the functions or membership of the BSA to fit that viewpoint.  There are other scouting-like organizations that can satisfy focused program and membership preferences if the BSA’s more-open approach is not agreeable.  

[Mrjeff]

Well said!  For many many many years the BSA followed a straight and narrow path and now the path is crooked and wide with far less travelers.  Members knew the rules and followed them and great rewards were achieved.  Now the road is wide and the rules were changed to please the masses and many who followed the old path picked a different rout and there are not enough new travelers to replace the old.  Great and meaningful rewards are fewer and many are no longer available. Feel free to interpret this story as you like, but the ending shall remain the same.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

Its not hard to understand duty to God

Honest question: what does Duty to God mean to you?

[Cburkhardt]

The BSA’s Declaration of Religious Principles is a wide-open policy that welcomes all.  In our Troop this certainly includes the girls who are still trying to figure out just what it is that they believe.  It is the business of their families to help them sort those issues out.

People who want to filter certain religious or philosophical beliefs from their children’s ears are free to do so.  You just can’t use the BSA to enforce your personal views on others.  This is because the BSA is not a temple, church or other religious, ethical or philosophical organization.  Varying groups have tried to enlist the BSA to advocate or limit specific religious viewpoints and all have failed.  We are a huge group and are reflective of a religiously tolerant society. 

[seattlecyclone]

9 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

The BSA’s Declaration of Religious Principles is a wide-open policy that welcomes all. 

It most certainly is not and does not. 

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God."

This is inherently unwelcoming to anyone who is less than certain about the existence of God or any obligations to Him.

"The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

There are a growing number of people who disagree with this premise. This Declaration of Religious Principles is unwelcoming to them, and intentionally so.

"Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life."

Again, if a youth comes from a home where the parents have no interest in giving attention to religious life (which is increasingly common these days), these principles explicitly and intentionally exclude those youth.

Whether these principles are in the best interest of the organization's long-term survival is certainly debatable. Whether they try to include everyone is not.

[Eagle1993]

UK scouting removed duty to God in 2013, saw growth and has far more members than BSA per capita.  I'm sure there were many who were upset in the early 1970s when BSA finally desegregated ... upsetting members doesn't mean you shouldn't do what is morally right.  

That said, most kids who are atheist don't see that as a barrier to scouting as many units are already incredibly flexible with the religious component.  I don't see an issue how BSA handles religion today and my guess is any change would result in a negative outcome. However, if the want to make a change, do it sooner than later.

In terms of religion, we have backed off actively doing much.  We had a den leader who taught the religious adventure.  He talked about Roman and Greek mythology and a scout asked why people stopped believing those stories ... he said it was replaced with other beliefs.  Then the same scout asked about what happens when Christianity is replaced by new beliefs... he stumbled and a couple of  Cub scouts ended up questioning their own faith. So we leave that up to the parents now.

[Cburkhardt]

First, I’ll answer the original poster’s question.  She exhibited objection to hearing religious viewpoints being shared at a BSA meeting (apparently a district BSA function), concern that her child might hear a religious viewpoint at some future BSA event and wants to know how she can avoid such circumstances.  The answer is simple.  The BSA will not limit the sharing of a religious prayer at one of its events.  The BSA will not restrict a group of girls in our Troop from deciding they wish to pursue a religious badge.  The BSA will not prohibit me from presenting my optional Sunday morning “moment of thankfulness” during one our campouts.  This is because the BSA is a religiously tolerant organization and will not prohibit these expressions of religious freedom. The BSA will not sort through viewpoints and determine which are and are not acceptable.  That is the role for your church, temple, ethical society or other group from which your family might seek such advice.

The original poster can absent herself from such circumstances and can instruct her daughter to do the same.  If she is zero-tolerant, she can join one of the many other organizations that disallow expressions of religious faith.  The point is that the original poster will not succeed in using the BSA to limit simple expression of religious belief.  Further, she will not be able to use the BSA to limit expression to one particular religious viewpoint.

The policy works well in practice because it works for those who have found a belief and for those who are searching.  That is as far as I will go in discussing it.

Part of being effective and happy as a volunteer in the BSA is understanding your capabilities, interests and concerns and blending with them into the BSA as a generally tolerant person.  We are a big, broad organization that serves the vast swath of young people in America.  If a person is a committed Atheist and regardless wants to voluntarily associate with the openly religiously tolerant BSA, that person is perfectly capable of dealing with it.  What I have never seen work successfully is for a person to join the BSA with a particular viewpoint and go about trying to narrow the functions or membership of the BSA to fit that viewpoint. 

[seattlecyclone]

 

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

UK scouting removed duty to God in 2013, saw growth and has far more members than BSA per capita.  I'm sure there were many who were upset in the early 1970s when BSA finally desegregated ... upsetting members doesn't mean you shouldn't do what is morally right.  

That said, most kids who are atheist don't see that as a barrier to scouting as many units are already incredibly flexible with the religious component.  I don't see an issue how BSA handles religion today and my guess is any change would result in a negative outcome. However, if the want to make a change, do it sooner than later.

In terms of religion, we have backed off actively doing much.  We had a den leader who taught the religious adventure.  He talked about Roman and Greek mythology and a scout asked why people stopped believing those stories ... he said it was replaced with other beliefs.  Then the same scout asked about what happens when Christianity is replaced by new beliefs... he stumbled and a couple of  Cub scouts ended up questioning their own faith. So we leave that up to the parents now.

 

Yep your pack's treatment of the "Duty to God" thing sounds very much like mine. We have members from a number of different faiths and the religious adventure is left entirely to each family to complete on their own time. It seems we're kind of in a "don't ask, don't tell" phase in regard to this issue. Atheists are officially forbidden, but unofficially tolerated so long as they can smile and nod when "God" comes up in the oath and don't make a big stink about it. That policy was unsustainable in the military and I suspect the same will prove true here. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by seattlecyclone

[mrjohns2]

We are chartered by the PTO with the principal as our XO. We can’t have religion be as big of a part of cubs as the mormans who influenced the advancement wanted. It is 100% done at home. Period. 

[Armymutt]

On 4/26/2023 at 2:09 PM, seattlecyclone said:

The LDS church was never "excluded" from Scouting. They chose to leave on their own. Regardless, the BSA continues to welcome any LDS-member individual who wishes to join a unit chartered by an organization outside of their church.

But you're right, any change is likely to push away some number of people while it also brings in some other number of people, and it's certainly possible that distancing from the "Duty to God" concept could result in a long-term reduction in membership.

I don't think you can say that modifying an organization's policies to be incompatible with those of another is not exclusionary any more than you can say that policies that are incompatible with an individual's identity is exclusionary.  The evidence is quite clear that modifying the policies did not have the desired effect, assuming that effect was to increase membership.  

[seattlecyclone]

Nah, those folks excluded themselves. They decided they didn't want to associate with an organization that would have openly gay people as members. They could have decided otherwise. This is not equivalent to the BSA telling people they can't join. LDS individuals who want to join are still welcome to do so.

[Eagledad]

On 4/26/2023 at 6:09 PM, seattlecyclone said:

Yep your pack's treatment of the "Duty to God" thing sounds very much like mine. We have members from a number of different faiths and the religious adventure is left entirely to each family to complete on their own time. .

My observation and experience is that 90% of units function this way. Should that be so surprising! Excluding the Mormons, the theme of scouting is developing character though outdoor activities. The common interest are the activities, not a particular religions.

On 4/26/2023 at 6:09 PM, seattlecyclone said:

 

 

 It seems we're kind of in a "don't ask, don't tell" phase in regard to this issue. Atheists are officially forbidden, but unofficially tolerated so long as they can smile and nod when "God" comes up in the oath and don't make a big stink about it. .

This is a little strange to me. Maybe the adults don't talk about religion, but the scouts sure do. And, we had several atheist families in both the Cubs and Troops. The parents want their sons to experience life and make their own choices. Activist make is sound like Scouting is a hard core exclusive program. But, most leaders want youth to learn from the program and make their own decisions. Now, if a scout decided he was an atheist and admitted it, his path  to Eagle came to an end. But, we still welcomed him in the activities because scouting is a great place to experience moral integrity, and god or God. It was, and probably is still that way for gays. I know units that had gay parents who  were active as non registered volunteers. Most adult leaders I knew (hundreds) believe scouting was a place to experience the a program that practiced respect and fairness through the Oath and Law. Things only got messy when adult gays nationally wanted to be registered role models.

I find in most of these discussions that the adults with a chip on their shoulder are the ones that cause the tension.  With all the angst that has been spewed on this forum over the years, It was Covid and the abuse litigation that may kill the program. 

As for me, god is required in the program to keep the program on course at a national level.

Barry