What does one need to do to avoid being proselytized to at district-level events?

[qwazse]

On the flip side, I have friends and relatives who fretted over my kids’ involvement in a program as secular as scouting. (Sending them to public school probably added to that drama.) I guess one of the reasons I am a scouter is to breath some air outside of the American Evanjellyfish bubble.

I insisted to my kids that their Christianity didn’t mean squat if they couldn’t live it out among non-Christians. Such friends were welcome at our table. Now adults, they are in many ways less secular than I am. Their friendship groups have narrowed into predominantly Christian circles. That bothers me greatly.

We consider Scouting to be a place where everyone’s religion is out in the open. “Scout’s Own” is a way to encourage that.

[Scouterlockport]

15 hours ago, sierracharliescouter said:

Funny Philmont story. I was the adult advisor. Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Sikh, Muslim, and one that was non-theist.

Dont tell people on here you knew a non theist scout there are some people who wouldn't want him in our organization because he doesn't believe in a god. As backwards as that opinion is.

[KublaiKen]

Is a non-theist the same as an atheist? (I mean theologically, not linguistically.)

[qwazse]

21 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

Is a non-theist the same as an atheist? (I mean theologically, not linguistically.)

@KublaiKen non-theists and atheists do have different theologies. Non theism asserts that there are spiritual practices that benefit a person in some intangible sense without necessarily involving a deity. Atheists vary in this, but many assert that if the benefit is intangible, then the asserted effect does not exist. I.e., a person would be just as well off without it.
This is why, in the first centuries, Christians were labeled atheists. They asserted that sacrifices to the pantheon (especially burning incense to Caesar) had no tangible benefit, and people were better off abandoning all such practices.

[sierracharliescouter]

2 hours ago, Scouterlockport said:

Dont tell people on here you knew a non theist scout there are some people who wouldn't want him in our organization because he doesn't believe in a god. As backwards as that opinion is.

If BSA conducted a truly anonymous poll of their membership, at least 10% would declare themselves atheist, and at least another 10% non-practicing religion. The Declaration of Religious Principles needs to be dropped.

BSA knows they can't afford to lose another 20% of their membership. It is "don't ask, don't tell" at this point.

Edited March 15, 2023 by sierracharliescouter

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

On the flip side, I have friends and relatives who fretted over my kids’ involvement in a program as secular as scouting.

🤯

[Eagledad]

8 minutes ago, sierracharliescouter said:

If BSA conducted a truly anonymous poll of their membership, at least 10% would declare themselves atheist, and at least another 10% non-practicing religion. The Declaration of Religious Principles needs to be dropped.

10%, wow, how do you know that?

The mission of the BSA is Developing ethical and moral decision makers. If the Declaration of Religious Principles is dropped, what is the common foundation of values for developing moral and ethical character?

Barry

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

@KublaiKen, to build off of @qwazse's distinction, 

Here are Tibetan Buddhist master Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche's words about theism in volumes 1 and 3 of The Profound Treasury of the Ocean of Dharma, composed of talks he gave while alive:

Vol 1

P 11: “KEY HINAYANA TEACHINGS: A non-theistic path

In order to study the hinayana teachings and the buddhadharma, or the “teachings of the Buddha” altogether, you need to let go of theism. You might think that nontheism amounts to a reaction against spirituality and that there is no hope in such an approach. However, people who have given up the theistic approach to religion and spirituality still feel a quality of magical power. They feel that it is possible to practice and study very hard, and to develop strength or power over their situation. When you see that such nontheistic practicioners are becoming more sane, solid, and calm, you may begin to suspect that, in fact, something good is going on. As a reasonable person who is perturbed by your relationship with the so-called bread-and-butter world and uninspired by the prospects presented by this ordinary version of reality, you may begin to think of the possibility of getting into a different and higher realm of discipline and experience. If you do not want to do so within a theistic framework, you might decide to follow the nontheistic Buddhist path. The way to begin is with the hinayana, so it is important to understand how the hinayana teachings are structured.”

P 48: “What Buddha said at the very beginning was that it is very necessary for you to be intelligent about what you are doing. Lack of intelligence is one of the most significant problems in spirituality and religion. Buddha's statement that you have to be intelligent about what you are doing and about your commitment to spirituality automatically brings up the notion of nontheism. If you are getting into true dharma, you have to check out your own psychological setup, first of all. You cannot simply trust somebody's blessing or magical power. You have to understand that your wretched setup is not so great, not so fantastic. That approach automatically eliminates the possibility of worshiping God, Brahma, or any other deity. All of that must go. You no longer worship your own emotionalized anything-at-all. You simply relate to your immediate psychological surroundings. You have to make that important point. You no longer worship anybody or try to gain magical powers, so you are stuck with what you are - your existence, your livelihood, your everything.”

Vol 3

p 433: “39 The Importance of a Nontheistic View

It is timely to review the difference between theism and nontheism, at this point, for we will continue to speak of the divine principle or devata throughout our discussion of vajrayana, so it is important to understand the nontheistic idea of divinity. The view of deity in tantra is often thought of as the same as in the theistic traditions. The simple fact of having all kinds of deities, gods and goddesses, devas and devis, is completely misunderstood. However, in the vajrayana teachings, the concept of deity has nothing to do with messengers or representations of some kind of external existence. We do not talk in terms of God, Godhead, or God-ness. There is no reference in vajrayana to celestial beings. Rather, we are talking about a higher level of energy, a higher level of wakefulness. (…) Buddhist tantric deities are simply expressions of our mind. So although the word divinity, or devata in Sanskrit, is used quite widely in the Hindu tradition as well as in the Buddhist tradition, there is no mutual understanding of divinity between the two traditions.”

p 435: "The vajrayana approach to deity is very simple and basic: it is that there is no external salvation. Although in vajrayana we speak a great deal about the experience of blessing, or adhishthana, and we invoke all kinds of power and energy, those things do not come from entity existing either within us or outside of us. We do not invoke blessings from any entity at all. The whole experience of invoking the deity is on a nonentity level. That is a very basic point.”

p 436: “The nontheistic view is crucial to the vajrayana. In hinayana, the question of nontheism is not particularly important. You do your little practice and you have your particular discipline. Everything is based on morality and discipline, on monastic rules and individual salvation. On the mahayana level, the theory of God or gods still does not play a very important part. You engage in compassionate action, and there is the inspiration from within concerning your buddha nature and so forth. But in the vajrayana, knowing the real differences between theism and nontheism is absolutely crucial.

It is very tricky. It has been said in many of the tantras that whatever the deity, if you visualize the deity on the basis of blind faith or one-pointed belief, you are cultivating egohood. So nontheism is a very important point."

This book has prefaces by (among others) the head of the Karma Kagyü lineage (the Karmapa), by the ninth Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, the seventh Shechen Ramjam (Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche's grandson), Tulku Throndup Rinpoche. This is, in other words, the establishment view of Karma Kagyü Tibetan Buddhism. So we are a deliberately nontheist lineage, part of a nontheist religion represented for decades in the BSA. 

Whether we are also atheist depends on the definition of atheist, and what you think the overlap between atheist and materialist is. I think there are effectively multiple definitions of atheist, since different authors use different working definitions in their texts. I usually call myself an atheist as well as a non-theist because, as in qwazse's example, I don't find the Christian God concept useful. (Or the Muslim Allah concept, or the Jewish Jahweh concept, the next most common theists I might meet.) Some might think I'm not an atheist but I think that's more linguistics. I'm definitely a non-theist as defined above by Trungpa.

[Scouterlockport]

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

10%, wow, how do you know that?

The mission of the BSA is Developing ethical and moral decision makers. If the Declaration of Religious Principles is dropped, what is the common foundation of values for developing moral and ethical character?

Barry

So to have morals you need to believe in god? It isn't very moral to have your only motivation to not commit a crime be for god to caught you. Not all moral codes have been founded on a foundation of god.

[Eagledad]

1 minute ago, Scouterlockport said:

So to have morals you need to believe in god? It isn't very moral to have your only motivation to not commit a crime be for god to caught you. Not all moral codes have been founded on a foundation of god.

Actually, if you search moral definition, most link it to religion.

But, to your point, if there is no source, then every SM has claim to moral definitions. Chaos. Units can teach whatever behavior they like and call it morality, and nobody could argue. The Oath and Law would have no foundation to stand on because behavior would depend on the emotional mood of the SM in that moment. 

The BSA points to one source, god.

So, where did the 10% come from?

Barry

[Scouterlockport]

8 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Actually, if you search moral definition, most link it to religion.

But, to your point, if there is no source, then every SM has claim to moral definitions. Chaos. Units can teach whatever behavior they like and call it morality, and nobody could argue. The Oath and Law would have no foundation to stand on because behavior would depend on the emotional mood of the SM in that moment. 

The BSA points to one source, god.

So, where did the 10% come from?

Barry

Most not all lol, so nothing of value or law wise was added during the enlightenment? If you feel that way then we shouldn't listen any of our nations founding documents.

Is it chaos with religion too, like people already pick their morals they like and ignore the ones they do not like from their own religions. And the line is god AND COUNTRY so would we not still have the American way find for morals?

And Barry the 10% number is probably uncutting the total number. Talk to anyone one of your scouts or listen to them they are not as religous as they seem.

[MattR]

Any bets on how long before @SSScout asks for a sub forum? 😀

[InquisitiveScouter]

21 minutes ago, Scouterlockport said:

If you feel that way then we shouldn't listen any of our nations founding documents.

???

From the Declaration of Independence:

 "...the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them.."

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--"

"We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions,..."

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, "

From the Constitution, here's one that is a head scratcher...

"...done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names..."  Although you could argue they were just using the convention of the day, it does hint at the cultural background of all signatories...

John Adams said, “Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” Morality and virtue are the foundation of our republic and necessary for a society to be free.

etc, etc, etc...

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[Eagledad]

11 minutes ago, Scouterlockport said:

Most not all lol, so nothing of value or law wise was added during the enlightenment? If you feel that way then we shouldn't listen any of our nations founding documents.

Yes, but through out recorded history, credit to morality is given to god. Even the Greek gods had followers. That is how cultural behavior is defined. And thank goodness. Otherwise, the definition of behavior comes from the person with the biggest stick. Look a Russia and China. China has the fastest growing underground religions in the world. Why do you think that is.

And how can a youth association define itself as a character development program without a generally agreed source? Of course you think you are moral without god, but that is a lot of responsibility for 100 scouts under your wing. I suggest getting a lot of insurance.

16 minutes ago, Scouterlockport said:

Is it chaos with religion too, like people already pick their morals they like and ignore the ones they do not like from their own religions. And the line is god AND COUNTRY so would we not still have the American way find for morals?

Well, again you make a lot of assumptions, but the simple answer is the family. When ever the SM makes a judgement the scout doesn't agree with, the family can educate both of them. A foundation of spiritual morality protects the scout and it has worked well so far. 

19 minutes ago, Scouterlockport said:

And Barry the 10% number is probably uncutting the total number. Talk to anyone one of your scouts or listen to them they are not as religous as they seem.

Ah! so it's a theory. I think that is OK because you can't be held accountable for an inaccurate personal theory probably based from emotional passion.

And it really doesn't matter how religious the unit is so long as the scout and their family can hold themselves accountable to their moral beliefs. Religious or not, a values based program with a foundation of god protects the youth from emotional adult leaders who make it up as they go along. And some do anyway, but they can be held accountable. I've seen a lot of leaders asked to leave for their personal interpretation of morality and character.

Barry

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

If the Declaration of Religious Principles is dropped, what is the common foundation of values for developing moral and ethical character?

As it always has been in the scouting movement, the scout law. That's the whole purpose of having the law, that's our shared values foundation. That's also why WOSM and WAGGS approves NSO scout laws. They're all variants on a theme.

https://www.scout.org/who-we-are/scout-movement/scout-promise-and-law

"Scout Promise and Law

Scouting celebrates inclusion and is open to everyone regardless of gender, age, background, faith, or beliefs. Every Scout is unique, but they find common ground in their shared Scout values. These values are upheld in the Scout Promise and Law, which are adapted to fit the unique culture, traditions, and diversity of each National Scout Organization. All adaptions of the Scout Promise and Law by National Scout Organizations and National Scout Associations must be approved by the World Organization of the Scout Movement.

Scout Promise

The Scout Promise is a personal and social commitment that a young person makes at the beginning of their Scouting journey. As every Scout around the world makes a similar promise, it promotes a sense of unity and marks the first step towards self-education and discovery of the Scout Method.

A Global Pledge

Reflecting the diversity and inclusive nature of Scouting, National Scout Organization often create own version of the Scout Promise but that can be said together and at the same time as a show of strength and unity. Here are just a few examples:

Scout Law

The Scout Law describes the values that every Scout should try to live up to in order to become an upstanding member of the Movement and their community. While the wording of the Scout Law has changed over time and among different National Scout Organizations, its key principals and objectives remain the same."

https://www.wagggs.org/en/about-us/our-history/original-promise-and-law/

"THE ORIGINAL PROMISE AND LAW

Learn about the Original Promise and Law of Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting

IN THIS SECTION

Lord Robert Baden-Powell encouraged the development of the whole person, including spiritual, moral, physical, mental, social, intellectual and emotional aspects. All of these aspects all were instrumental in the creation of the Fundamental Principles of Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting, outlined in the Original Promise and Law.

ORIGINAL PROMISE

On my honour, I promise that I will do my best:

To do my duty to God and the King (Or God and my country);

To help other people at all times;

To obey the Guide Law

ORIGINAL LAW

A Guide’s honour is to be trusted.

A Guide is loyal.

A Guide's duty is to be useful and to help others.

A Guide is a friend to all and a sister to every other Guide.

A Guide is courteous.

A Guide is a friend to animals.

A Guide obeys orders.

A Guide smiles and sings under all difficulties.

A Guide is thrifty.

A Guide is pure in thought, in word and in deed"

 

What I scouted under was this

https://www.scouterna.se/scout-ledare-kar/jag-ar-scout/scoutlag-och-lofte/

"To be a good friend

The scout law is a way for us to make sure that we are kind to each other, nature, and ourselves. We don't promise to always follow the scout law, but we promise to try.

The Scout Law

A scout seeks their beliefs and respects those of others.

A scout is honest and dependable.

A scout is kind and helpful.

A scout shows consideration and is a good friend.

A scout meets difficulties cheerfully.

A scout makes themselves familiar with and takes care of nature.

A scout feels responsibility for themselves and others.

The Scout Promise

'I promise to follow the scout law as well as I can.'"

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by AwakeEnergyScouter
Fixed some typos