What does one need to do to avoid being proselytized to at district-level events?

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

I am not a Christian and neither is my scout. Neither of us believe in either the old gods or the new God. My own scouting experience was secular, and I want my scout to be free to seek their own beliefs as I was.

Some of the things I'm reading here and elsewhere on the internet have rekindled my worry that Cub Scouts and Scouts BSA are, in practice, an arm of the Christian church except for in very select spots, despite the loose technical definition of "God" in the religious pledge. I can select a secular pack and troop, but I don't want to send my scout into some district Christian recruiting camp, or give them the impression that scouting is Christian. How can I ensure that I don't do this by mistake? Are some councils more prone to having Christianity be part of events than others? Does it depend on the people organizing? How do other non-Christians navigate all the Christianity everywhere?

[InquisitiveScouter]

44 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I am not a Christian and neither is my scout. Neither of us believe in either the old gods or the new God. My own scouting experience was secular, and I want my scout to be free to seek their own beliefs as I was.

Some of the things I'm reading here and elsewhere on the internet have rekindled my worry that Cub Scouts and Scouts BSA are, in practice, an arm of the Christian church except for in very select spots, despite the loose technical definition of "God" in the religious pledge. I can select a secular pack and troop, but I don't want to send my scout into some district Christian recruiting camp, or give them the impression that scouting is Christian. How can I ensure that I don't do this by mistake? Are some councils more prone to having Christianity be part of events than others? Does it depend on the people organizing? How do other non-Christians navigate all the Christianity everywhere?

I do not believe you have to worry about this...

For example, we have Hindus, Muslims, one Buddhist, Jews, Protestants, and Catholics (Roman and Eastern Orthodox) in our Troop.  We all get along together 😜

The Scout Oath does have a phrase each Scout promises, "On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law,..."  This is the first part of the Scout Oath.  The 12th point of the Scout Law is, "A Scout is Reverent."

At each rank milestone along his Scouting journey, your Scout will be asked to define what he believes to be his duty to God.  This is totally under the purview of you as his parents, and the Scout.  It is my job as an adult mentor to challenge the Scout to do this, and to challenge him to live up to what he believes his duty is.

If at any point, you find someone is trying to proselytize your Scout, you should identify this to the Troop leadership so that it can be stopped. 

However, religious-affiliated chartering organizations who use Scouting as their youth outreach program may certainly encourage Scouts to attend events that are faith-based, but they may never "require" it.  Also, questions to your Scout about his faith, and other people's sharing of their faith are fine...

A Scout is Reverent means "A Scout is reverent toward God.  He is faithful in his religious duties.  He respects the beliefs of others."  And further... "It is your duty to respect and defend their rights to their religious beliefs even when they are different from your own."

Also, you signed an application which said:

"Excerpt From the Declaration of Religious Principle

The BSA maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership."

So, basically, as the current policy is written, your Scout (or you) can not be an atheist and be a member of the BSA.

If you are, indeed, atheist, as is your right to be, there are other Scouting organizations in the US you could investigate.  One of them is Outdoor Service Guides

https://bpsa-us.org/join-us/find-a-group/

In hope this answers your question.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter
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[InquisitiveScouter]

Just curious... why the downvote @Scouterlockport??

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

I'm glad to hear that your troop has mastered religious coexistence. This is a key skill for creating a good, stable future, as well as something that's logically required to live up to the scout law.

Our pack has also been very welcoming, despite the fact that we're almost certainly odd ducks in an incredibly Christian part of the US. It isn't this level that I'm worried about. I was previously, before we joined, but I simply avoided all units owned by churches and this seems to have worked.

However, I'm reading about religious services being held at camps and camporees, and the content of all of these seems to be generally Abrahamic at best, explicitly Christian at worst. I see lots of voices here blending Christianity and scouting quite freely, even people saying that it's ok to proselytize to scouts. Someone mentioned having heard fire and brimstone sermons at a camporee, and that's just not something I want my child exposed to for multiple reasons. How do I know what kind of religious content is part of an event like that that's organized by people outside my own unit? That's my question.

As for atheism, Buddhists are explicitly allowed, so I guess atheists are allowed after all. The way that religious declaration is worded in and of itself sounds an awful lot like "you have to be a Christian" with an asterisk on it. In terms of signing agreements, however, the asterisk definitely means that people who disbelieve in the existence of the Christian God can be BSA members even though the standard interpretation of "God" in the singular and capitalized in English is the Christian God. It seems like what the statement is really after is whether you can connect to the luminosity of emptiness, in other words whether you are a strict materialist or not, and plenty of atheists aren't strict materialists. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

5 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

How do I know what kind of religious content is part of an event like that that's organized by people outside my own unit?

Ask.

Also, you are not required to attend any of these events.  If any particular camp requires you to attend some event in order to qualify for some award or recognition, you can simply go off on your own and have your own "spiritual experience" according to the tenets of your beliefs, and count that.

If anyone denied that opportunity to you, I'd gladly come and side with you to oppose them.

And although I'm not going down the metaphysical rabbit hole again 😜 I'll simply say your beliefs are your business.  And if you believe that any value system contortions are acceptable in order to participate, then have at it... I have my own garden to tend. 

[DannyG]

When my child started as a Cub Scout, the Pack was one of the few units in the area NOT chartered at a church. So it attracted a secular group of families and scouts. Unfortunately a few years after we joined the charter organization folded. But the Pack remained and we found a new charter org. at a local church that didn't have scouts. We lost a few families uncomfortable with the arrangement but it remains an overall secular group. Duty to God is mostly done at home with families, under each families' belief system. The church pastor occasionally joins us for a prayer, like saying grace at the Blue and Gold banquet. But she usually stays to herself in her office or isn't even there when we meet. And we have a place to participate on Scout Sunday. Families of all faiths participate, although it is never mandatory. Reverence is also respect for others beliefs. Participating with the charter org. is part of the scouting relationship.

District events are a little different. It does depend on the group organizing, however... They call the service "Scouts' Own", but it is always led by a Christian pastor following the format of a church service, particularly Protestant. And they try to incorporate different faiths with different prayers and stories from other beliefs. But it always feels like a Protestant worship service. The only other option is to stay back at camp by yourself while the rest of camp goes to the service. Really there is no way to avoid it because scouts and adults feel free to practice their religion out in the open at Scouting events. It only takes one hour out of a weekend long trip? NBD to me. Be reverent, respect others' beliefs, and be true to yourself.

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, DannyG said:

The only other option is to stay back at camp by yourself while the rest of camp goes to the service.

You could contact the organizers and offer up an alternative of whatever flavor you want.  If they turn you down, then you don't attend the event and report that to your SE.

Become a part of the solution...

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Also, you are not required to attend any of these events.  If any particular camp requires you to attend some event in order to qualify for some award or recognition, you can simply go off on your own and have your own "spiritual experience" according to the tenets of your beliefs, and count that.

Thank you! This is very helpful. It seems a bit rude to just leave a camp event, but if this is acceptable then that's a clear route to not having to participate in someone else's religion if all planning and checking fails.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you said about value system contortions. Would you be willing to explain? 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

6 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

You could contact the organizers and offer up an alternative of whatever flavor you want.  If they turn you down, then you don't attend the event and report that to your SE.

Become a part of the solution...

In the abstract I agree, in practice I don't think it can be done in the general case. How many religions are there? How many different ways of practicing? It would suck up all available time with just a few religions.

I mean what I would want isn't a flavor, it's a completely different event. The closest thing to a Christian church service is doing a public sadhana not requiring empowerment, and even that doesn't make sense to just throw out into a crowd because even if they're Buddhist, they may not practice that specific one or do tantra at all. Lots of people stick to the sutrayana. We could all sit, and all dharmic religions could follow our own specific instructions, but then the tables are just reversed on the Abrahamic folks who don't meditate. 

This is why I think we should just leave religion to the private sphere and get on with the scouting. As BP said, it's underlying it all anyway.

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Thank you! This is very helpful. It seems a bit rude to just leave a camp event, but if this is acceptable then that's a clear route to not having to participate in someone else's religion if all planning and checking fails.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you said about value system contortions. Would you be willing to explain? 

If you were uncomfortable with the format, content, or message, it would be perfectly acceptable to leave.

From time to time, I see Scout Camps offer a whole menu of worship services... Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or the "Non-denominational" catch all.

I have walked out of services before, due to matters of conscience.  I do not consider it rude at all...

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

In the abstract I agree, in practice I don't think it can be done in the general case. How many religions are there? How many different ways of practicing? It would suck up all available time with just a few religions.

I mean what I would want isn't a flavor, it's a completely different event. The closest thing to a Christian church service is doing a public sadhana not requiring empowerment, and even that doesn't make sense to just throw out into a crowd because even if they're Buddhist, they may not practice that specific one or do tantra at all. Lots of people stick to the sutrayana. We could all sit, and all dharmic religions could follow our own specific instructions, but then the tables are just reversed on the Abrahamic folks who don't meditate. 

This is why I think we should just leave religion to the private sphere and get on with the scouting. As BP said, it's underlying it all anyway.

This is why participation is not required.  Simply do not attend... no harm, no foul.

If you choose to attend and you realize it is not your cup of tea, then leave.

Again, if anyone ever requires participation, now we have a problem.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

17 minutes ago, DannyG said:

District events are a little different. It does depend on the group organizing, however... They call the service "Scouts' Own", but it is always led by a Christian pastor following the format of a church service, particularly Protestant. And they try to incorporate different faiths with different prayers and stories from other beliefs. But it always feels like a Protestant worship service. The only other option is to stay back at camp by yourself while the rest of camp goes to the service. Really there is no way to avoid it because scouts and adults feel free to practice their religion out in the open at Scouting events. It only takes one hour out of a weekend long trip? NBD to me. Be reverent, respect others' beliefs, and be true to yourself.

This whole letting it all hang out is difficult for me, and part of that is definitely cultural.

https://satwcomic.com/the-easy-way

So they really do do Christian services at camps regularly? Sigh.

Does this mean I can practice my Buddhism as if I was at home? I've sat outside my tent, hoping that people write it off as trendy nonsense, but I try to hide my land spirit offerings and such because I don't want any questions. It's private. And I don't want to accidentally be seen as proselytizing to others' children! I don't know that I would be comfortable doing even foundational and Mahayana practices in public view even if others wouldn't mind, but I can't help but suspect that they would in fact mind. I'd hate to find out that they do, and ruin friendships.

Not sure what my scout will want to do, but it will be good to be clear from the start that they don't have to go and that it really is ok to be different.

[InquisitiveScouter]

10 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

This whole letting it all hang out is difficult for me, and part of that is definitely cultural.

https://satwcomic.com/the-easy-way

So they really do do Christian services at camps regularly? Sigh.

Does this mean I can practice my Buddhism as if I was at home? I've sat outside my tent, hoping that people write it off as trendy nonsense, but I try to hide my land spirit offerings and such because I don't want any questions. It's private. And I don't want to accidentally be seen as proselytizing to others' children! I don't know that I would be comfortable doing even foundational and Mahayana practices in public view even if others wouldn't mind, but I can't help but suspect that they would in fact mind. I'd hate to find out that they do, and ruin friendships.

Not sure what my scout will want to do, but it will be good to be clear from the start that they don't have to go and that it really is ok to be different.

Brother, I wholeheartedly encourage you to practice your faith as you see fit.

If any Scout, Scouter, or person has a problem with it, then they are being un-Scoutlike.

BTW, have you seen the Buddhist Sangha Award for youth??  (Metta for Cub Scouts...)

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/8551291/requirements-for-the-sangha-award-national-buddhist-committee- 

Or the Bodhi Award for adults?

https://www.buddhistchurchesofamerica.org/_files/ugd/458b11_07bacc39c7714155b86c0d9075103570.pdf

Edited March 14, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[HashTagScouts]

4 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

This whole letting it all hang out is difficult for me, and part of that is definitely cultural.

https://satwcomic.com/the-easy-way

So they really do do Christian services at camps regularly? Sigh.

Does this mean I can practice my Buddhism as if I was at home? I've sat outside my tent, hoping that people write it off as trendy nonsense, but I try to hide my land spirit offerings and such because I don't want any questions. It's private. And I don't want to accidentally be seen as proselytizing to others' children! I don't know that I would be comfortable doing even foundational and Mahayana practices in public view even if others wouldn't mind, but I can't help but suspect that they would in fact mind. I'd hate to find out that they do, and ruin friendships.

Not sure what my scout will want to do, but it will be good to be clear from the start that they don't have to go and that it really is ok to be different.

We have CO's here in MA that are Buddhist. You may even want to contact them for advice on handling interaction with other faith traditions in a Scouting context.

https://sites.google.com/bliascouts.org/blia-scouts-boston

 

I am a deist that doesn't believe that God is a metaphysical entity in the way that Abrahamic religions do, or that it is even possible for humans to ever comprehend such an entity, but respect the right of others to believe as they do. As such, I generally do not participate in Scout's Own services but I will stand in silence out of respect to others during grace at mealtime. 

 

[DannyG]

4 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Does this mean I can practice my Buddhism as if I was at home? 

Yes, and you should feel comfortable doing that. I hope that you are in a unit that supports your belief system. To me, that is what it means "A scout is reverent."  But it is really up to you and your faith how you want to practice. I know we have scouts that bring prayer rugs and other religious items on outings in order to practice their faith. A few leave the group at certain times to fulfill their duty to God, then rejoin us later. Never once was a problem.