The Dreaded Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, Project Plan Section

[fred8033]

21 hours ago, DuctTape said:

If I could do one thing at BSA it would be to 86 all workbooks. Scouts is not school. Even in school we don't use workbooks. It isn't 1982 anymore.

I'd ditch all the merit badge workbooks.  I have contempt for them.

The Eagle project workbook though is different.  The proposal is very much a contract between all the parties.  The rest helps create evidence.

The reason I like the workbook is because of what was going on before 2011 when the workbook was created.  Councils / districts were requiring large proposal submittals that were effectively large three ring binders of detailed project plans.  Way, way, way beyond what was needed. 

KEY POINT - The Eagle project workbook exists not to force the scout down a path.  The Eagle project workbook exists to protect the scout from the scouting adult volunteers (unit, district, council).  

[fred8033]

15 hours ago, PACAN said:

A bit of history...the current EP workbook was borne out of reviewers jerking scouts around because they didn't have enough detail.  Remember it was just a blank sheet of paper.  Scouts had up to 8 reviews before approval and some just gave up.  BSA Advancement said enough of this stupidity and we (and I helped) wrote the GTA and EP documents.   Are there still boneheads who jerk scouts around - absolutely unfortunately.

Thank you and your other volunteers.  I greatly appreciate it.  

I remember 2010 when I was livid and loud at a district meeting because the district advancement team had bounced our scout's project proposal a 4th time because it did not have a map and directions to the local hospital.  4th review and then asking for a map to the hospital.  The project was to rebuild an ushers closet at the church (tear it down to the walls, clean, paint, new shelving, organize, etc).

Then, they lost the workbook.  The real issue is the reviewers didn't think the project was big enough.  They wanted to get more effort out of the scout.   So, they put that effort in the proposal review.  

Procedures and policies exist because of problems in the past.  The Eagle project process was very inconsistent across units, districts and councils.  The GTA and ESP workbook are HUGE IMPROVEMENTS.  They will never be perfect because people are different with different opinions and goals.  I absolutely love the direction GTA and the workbook went.  Would I like changes?  Sure.  But it's drastically better.

Another huge improvement was the bi-monthly publishing of the advancement news.  Great guidance.  

[fred8033]

14 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Unfortunately, in these parts, the district or council proposal reviewers are asking for more "planning" details in the proposal phase than are needed, IMHO.

This is before they will green light the project (with a signature.)

I think we should put in some way to restrict input/demand from the council advancement reps.  In my seven years here, this has always been the hold up... often with a back-and0forth of two or three times requesting "sufficient detail" on the proposal in order to grant approval.  So, the Scouts do the research... for example, drawing up specific plans for a 16 foot footbridge, including board dimensions and length needed, and the number of screws needed, along with a schedule of work, etc.  Again, these are Planning details, not Proposal details...

That is absolutely wrong.  Specific plans.  Itemized material counts.  Board sizes.  Number of screws.  etc, etc.  That's just wrong.  

There is a balance.  Perhaps a foot bridge needs a rough drawing to demonstrate understanding of what needs to be done and install enough confidence in the reviewers that the bridge will be good and safe.  Detailed drawings and precise estimates of wood, screws is absolutely NOT required.  In fact, I believe it is expressly stated that we can't expect that out of the scout in the proposal.

IMHO, this indicates volunteers that need to move on.

Edited March 10, 2023 by fred8033

[Jameson76]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

I'd ditch all the merit badge workbooks.  I have contempt for them.

The Eagle project workbook though is different.  The proposal is very much a contract between all the parties.  The rest helps create evidence.

The reason I like the workbook is because of what was going on before 2011 when the workbook was created.  Councils / districts were requiring large proposal submittals that were effectively large three ring binders of detailed project plans.  Way, way, way beyond what was needed. 

KEY POINT - The Eagle project workbook exists not to force the scout down a path.  The Eagle project workbook exists to protect the scout from the scouting adult volunteers (unit, district, council).  

I would agree the ES workbook is a good framework.  I think it gives the Scout guidance and also limits the scope of input or pushback

Our unit averages 10 - 12 Eagle Scout annually.  My role is the Life to Eagle coordinator.  In working with Scouts on their proposals I want to see if they understand the scope of what they are proposing and what it will actually take to accomplish. 

I had one Scout that was looking at building a footbridge for a school's cross country course.  Estimate was 4' bridge.  Seemed very straightforward, but, in our discussions he had taken input from the school on length needed.  I advised him to do a specific site visit.  The creek was in fact only 4 feet wide, but, the banks were sloped and to build a safe bridge at the level of the trail the bridge would need to be 15'.  A big change in scope and engineering.  He did the bridge, but the scope was much larger. bigger crew to haul lumber, 2 x 8's for the span, etc etc.  

The proposal is just that, a proposal.  Does the Scout understand what is needed and what it will take.  The plan is where the rubber meets the road on costs and other needs.

All it takes in one WB trained tinpot dictator with an over inflated sense of worth to make what should be a good learning and experience process descend into a bureaucratic hell and never ending pointless rounds questions that have no real value.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Jameson76

[SSScout]

There is a difference between "I'm going to make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches " and  "I am going to build a new kitchen for the homeless shelter".

The planning can be as important as the project completion.   At work, we used to talk about back dating what we just did to accomplish solving a problem.

So the Eagle Project Book has a "Planning Section".....  The Scout can recreate ( ! ) his/her process....  In the negotiations  with the Beneficiary,  the project is fleshed out. . What do they want. What does the Scout want to do.  What is POSSIBLE with a crew of well meaning amateurs (? augmented by some friendly professionals ?).   What would satisfy the beneficiary. .   All that can be explained in the EPB.   And it can be recreated , in the past tense if necessary. Been done, seen that....

[nolesrule]

The proposal section is fine... until you get to Page D. Everything past the "Giving Leadership" section is straight up project planning. My daughter didn't do a Planning section either because she found it unnecessarily redundant to the proposal.

I can see the planning section being helpful to scouts for complex projects to help keep organized, but a project doesn't have to be complex. If you have to practically plan the project in the proposal, you don't need the planning section.

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, SSScout said:

All that can be explained in the EPB.   And it can be recreated , in the past tense if necessary. Been done, seen that....

This Scout had put excruciating detail (as the district/council guy requested before approving)  in the proposal section (number and dimensions of boards, exact cost, amount of fasteners required, perfect drawing of the bridge from three angles, exhaustive list of tools (nearly), complete list of supplies, job tasks to be done, number of people and manhours required to complete, etc., etc., etc...)

Both his project coach and beneficiary went over his plans with him and were satisfied (IMHO, that should be enough).  He did his project with the planning he had done, and was successful.  (With a few minor changes, as is always expected.)

He wrote up the after action and got it signed, and left the Plan Section blank, as a sufficient level of detailed planning was done and approved by the beneficiary.

When he turned in the completed and signed Workbook to request his EBoR, the district/council guy writes back telling him (and I quote exactly...) "Your workbook has a blank Project Plan section.  Please send me the Project Plan you completed with your Project Coach, Mr XXXX.  This is an important document as it shows that you "developed the planning"."

So the Scout called me, asking about what to do.  I advised him to either write up everything in detail in the Plan Section, or report in the Plan Section something to this effect.... (the route he chose, and I think he nailed it) "My project will not be different from my approved proposal. My project coach and beneficiary believe there is sufficient detail on the project proposal and the project plan is not needed."  (This after the Scout called his coach and beneficiary to tell them he was writing it this way... and they both concurred.)  (Although, I think he should have written that last bit as "the Project Plan Section of this workbook is not needed..."

Throughout the Plan Section, wherever there was additional detail requested, he simply wrote "See Project Proposal" or N/A

When he re-submitted his updated workbook (again, the project was already complete and signed off in the Workbook as complete by the Scout, beneficiary, and unit leader),  he got this answer back:

"When I sent you the email the other day asking for the Project Plan, I assumed you had just not included what you had completed back in the planning stages of your project. However, it seems that you filled it out after I asked, which is not the point of the Project Plan, which is to thoroughly plan your project in detail, thus all the various sections pertaining to materials, supplies, logistics, safety, scheduling, etc."

There are more details, but to shorten this... the Scout will now have his Board of Review and understands he must be ready to explain his planning verbally to the EBoR when/if requested.

I do wish there was some way to avoid the four to five days of hand-wringing (on the Scout's and his parents' parts), re-writes, miscommunications, frustration, (and now tension between the council rep and our unit), etc. etc. etc., other than to have the Scout spend an unnecessary amount of time trying to satisfy one person's request for redundant information that is not required in the first place.

It isn't supposed to be this hard.

To quote @Eagle94-A1's son... HORRIBLE PAPERWORK.

Edited March 10, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[malraux]

23 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

When he turned in the completed and signed Workbook to request his EBoR, the district/council guy writes back telling him (and I quote exactly...) "Your workbook has a blank Project Plan section.  Please send me the Project Plan you completed with your Project Coach, Mr XXXX.  This is an important document as it shows that you "developed the planning"."

Of course the guide to advancement says: 9.0.2.12

Quote

 Any plans completed after the project proposal has been approved by the council or district are between the Scout and the beneficiary. 

I will though disagree about the paperwork being horrible. This is a case of the adults being horrible, not the paperwork.

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 minutes ago, malraux said:

This is a case of the adults being horrible, not the paperwork.

Agreed.

[DuctTape]

If the solution to improper behavior by adults is paperwork for scouts, then the solution did not correctly identify the problem.

If council and district adults are acting inappropriately, then they need training and oversight. 

[malraux]

And I guess the real thing is who is going to look at this project plan form and why does it matter? The unit leader is the one who says it was done correctly not council/district. National certainly isn’t going to go through and care about this. The EBoR can, but the point of an eagle board is to have a friendly conversation, not an inquisition about why the project plan said it needed 200 screws but instead only used 150. This seems to be needless formalism for something that’ll never even get looked at. 
 

it might matter if the proposal were very brief and needed a bunch to get fleshed out but this doesn’t seem like the case here. 

Edited March 10, 2023 by malraux

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 hours ago, malraux said:

And I guess the real thing is who is going to look at this project plan form and why does it matter? The unit leader is the one who says it was done correctly not council/district. National certainly isn’t going to go through and care about this. The EBoR can, but the point of an eagle board is to have a friendly conversation, not an inquisition about why the project plan said it needed 200 screws but instead only used 150. This seems to be needless formalism for something that’ll never even get looked at. 
 

it might matter if the proposal were very brief and needed a bunch to get fleshed out but this doesn’t seem like the case here. 

Ostensibly, it is to make sure the Eagle Scout candidate planned the project.

A 16 year old's level of planning usually is not going to be anywhere near an adult's level of planning.

Oftentimes, I actually let the Scout experience difficulty, and then let them figure out how they are going to deal with it.  And, if they did not plan properly (did not have enough boards or bolts or cement bags, or whatever) they will learn from their mistakes.

Once the project is signed off, isn't that sufficient to say that, at some point, the planning came together so that the Scout could finish his project?

Leave that discovery for the EBoR.  Finding out what went wrong, or what obstacles were encountered in a project, and how the Scout dealt with it speaks volumes more about his personal growth than how well he planned it.  When I see a meticulously planned project, I also hold it a bit more suspect as having had too much parental or leader involvement anyway... in my experience...

Edited March 10, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[malraux]

51 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Once the project is signed off, isn't that sufficient to say that, at some point, the planning came together so that the Scout could finish his project?

Seems to me, the unit leader and the project beneficiary are the ones who get to make the call, as it's their signatures on the last page.

 

Quote

 There must also be evidence of planning and development. This is not only part of the requirement, but relates to practicing our motto to “Be Prepared.” However, in determining if a project meets requirement 5, reviewers must not require more planning and development than necessary to execute the project. These elements must not overshadow the project itself, as long as the effort was well led, and resulted in an otherwise worthy outcome acceptable to the beneficiary.

Seems like the bsa standard is that if the project got done, then adequate planning was done. Screwing up planning is a good way to learn the importance of planning for this sort of thing.

[DuctTape]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Ostensibly, it is to make sure the Eagle Scout candidate planned the project.

A 16 year old's level of planning usually is not going to be anywhere near an adult's level of planning.

Oftentimes, I actually let the Scout experience difficulty, and then let them figure out how they are going to deal with it.  And, if they did not plan properly (did not have enough boards or bolts or cement bags, or whatever) they will learn from their mistakes.

Once the project is signed off, isn't that sufficient to say that, at some point, the planning came together so that the Scout could finish his project?

Leave that discovery for the EBoR.  Finding out what went wrong, or what obstacles were encountered in a project, and how the Scout dealt with it speaks volumes more about his personal growth than how well he planned it.  When I see a meticulously planned project, I also hold it a bit more suspect as having had too much parental or leader involvement anyway... in my experience...

Agreed. Part of the project is to also be a learning and growth opportunity. If an error was made in planning, and not enough materials were purchased, etc... then the project might need to be finished the following week. It is these mistakes and the follow-up which help develop management, leadership and ultimately character. The final report, if sufficient time is spent on it, will include significant reflection by the scout on their growth. 

[Eagle_Chris]

We have an adult volunteer at our Council that hosts a “Life to Eagle” session with all new Life Scouts.  He reviews the Eagle service project objective and the Eagle Service project workbook section by section with the Scouts.

I always thought it was a great way to orient the Life Scouts to the service project purpose, process and how to correctly fill out the workbook.  It then becomes their responsibility to fill it out properly.  As they go for Committee and SM signatures these are opportunities for coaching and mentoring of the Eagle candidate.

The workbook’s purpose is to help the Scout navigate how to deliver a service project.  Most Scouts aren’t trained in project management so this becomes a great guide for them.