The Dreaded Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, Project Plan Section

[InquisitiveScouter]

We have an upcoming EBoR (the first since I left as SM 18 months ago).

The Scout, working with his project coach (not me) and the beneficiary, satisfied the beneficiary with enough detail in his project proposal and through discussions and site visits that the beneficiary did not request a more detailed plan, and gave the Scout the green light to do the project (last summer).

Scout  had a successful project and beneficiary is happy with the outcome, and signed off on project completion.

Scout turned in his ESSP Workbook with that Plan section blank, as it is not required (although "highly recommended")

Now Scout is getting pushback from Council Advancement rep that he has to fill out that section.

I have advised the Scout not to do that.  If the detailed written plan was to be done, it was to be done prior to the project.  Basically, it seems to me that the council guy wants the Scout to write another after action report.

I have advised the Scout that, if the question comes up during his EBoR about why he did not fill in that section, to simply explain that the beneficiary was satisfied with his level of planning, and that he was thrifty with his time in not filling out the unrequired section of the workbook.

This is sort of along the lines explained here:

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/05/20/ask-the-expert-who-approves-the-eagle-scout-project-final-plan/

Any other tips for mentoring this Scout, who after a terse email interaction with the council advancement rep, will be scheduled for his EBoR shortly?

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

The Scout, working with his project coach (not me) and the beneficiary, satisfied the beneficiary with enough detail in his project proposal and through discussions and site visits that the beneficiary did not request a more detailed plan, and gave the Scout the green light to do the project (last summer).

Normal.  Beneficiary usually never sees the "plan".  If the beneficiary wants to see more, that should be in the proposal.  Now, the proposal might result in "we want to be involved in ... "
 

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Scout turned in his ESSP Workbook with that Plan section blank, as it is not required (although "highly recommended")

That's the scout's right, but it's also the EBOR's right to then grill the scout to get the planning details.  I've told scouts to fill out the plan to create evidence of planning.  That's part of the rank requirement:  develop, plan and lead.  Without it in the workbook, the EBOR at first-glance sees no planning.  That will be motivation to dig in to confirm the scout's planning.  That's the EBOR's job. 

 

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Now Scout is getting pushback from Council Advancement rep that he has to fill out that section.

Really good ideas get cemented as rules until someone pushes back.  The Council Advancement Committees are almost all volunteers.  That volunteer enthusiasm can result in drift from the published written rules.  

 

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I have advised the Scout that, if the question comes up during his EBoR about why he did not fill in that section, to simply explain that the beneficiary was satisfied with his level of planning, and that he was thrifty with his time in not filling out the unrequired section of the workbook.

EBOR has the right to confirm requirements were met; including evidence of planning.  The EBOR can't require it in the workbook, but the EBOR has the right to question the scout on the planning.  

I'd tell the scout to choose.  Does the scout want to fill out the planning section to reduce red flags for the EBOR?   Will the scout be ready to defend the planning in the EBOR?  It's not really an either-or.  It's about how to give the scout the best Eagle rank experience.  

IMHO, let the scout pick the battle.  It's a real choice.  The scout has to live with the choice. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by fred8033

[malraux]

I have also had similarly frustrating run ins with my district advancement chair about excessive forms for eagle, for example that the statement of ambitions and life purpose essay thing must be part of the scoutmaster conference for eagle because it is listed after point 6 and before point 7 in the rank requirements so it must be a part of step 6.

Looking at the differences in documentation between the proposal and the project plan, there are questions there that regardless of if the project plan form was used should have an answer. Contingency plans, more detailed budgeting process, job breakdowns, safety planning, etc are part of planning and I would expect the eagle candidate to have good answers to those questions. The candidate should have some level of documentation of those plans being done in some form. That said, I can easily see a more detailed project proposal, especially one developed in conjunction with the beneficiary to not need much additional work.

Also, for my district/council, the only time the completed form is seen is at the EBOR, it isn't turned in as part of the request for a BOR.

[fred8033]

4 minutes ago, malraux said:

Also, for my district/council, the only time the completed form is seen is at the EBOR, it isn't turned in as part of the request for a BOR.

Wow.  I guess I should have expected some councils don't require a thick packet submitted.  Our council collects all paperwork expected for the EBOR.  That includes all sections of the project workbook, references, statements of ambition and purpose, etc.  

[malraux]

1 minute ago, fred8033 said:

Wow.  I guess I should have expected some councils don't require a thick packet submitted.  Our council collects all paperwork expected for the EBOR.  That includes all sections of the project workbook, references, statements of ambition and purpose, etc.  

I personally think they should if only to get it to the board chair before the meeting, but the sign off on the project completion only requires the unit leader, not someone from district. And the more physical paperwork moves around, the more there's a chance it'll get lost.

[Jameson76]

Key notation in the ESSP

Note that you are not required to provide more details than are necessary for the accomplishment of your project.

While the written plan is important and can be useful, again, the requirement is "PLAN".  This does not specify how or what is required.

 

[DuctTape]

That workbook, etc... is awful. 

Just this week I was helping a scout with it. What a disaster. I recall writing a project report not trying to fill in boxes.

If I could do one thing at BSA it would be to 86 all workbooks. Scouts is not school. Even in school we don't use workbooks. It isn't 1982 anymore.

[malraux]

12 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

If I could do one thing at BSA it would be to 86 all workbooks. Scouts is not school. Even in school we don't use workbooks. It isn't 1982 anymore.

To be fair, most of the merit badge workbooks are 3rd party items. But yes I agree that they are awful.

[InquisitiveScouter]

The comments other leaders put on the blog article are really good, too.  Recommended reading.

Thanks for your comments so far... the great majority of us are thinking along the same lines...

Overall, there are two big problems with the ESSP Workbook...

1.  Too much project detail required in the REQUIRED proposal section, which leads to little or no detail written in the NOT REQUIRED plan section.

2.  The Plan Section is NOT REQUIRED.

Both are easy fixes, IMHO.

1.  Rewrite the proposal section to be just that... more of a proposal than a plan.

2.  Make it a requirement that the Scout present his Final Plan to the beneficiary, and secure a beneficiary signature BEFORE work begins.  A registered unit leader should be at this meeting (do we require that?), but IS NOT an approval authority.  However, there must be a clear understanding that the Scouters providing the two-deep supervision requirement for the ESSP may AT ANY TIME stop work due to health and safety concerns.

Thoughts??

  

Edited March 9, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[PACAN]

A bit of history...the current EP workbook was borne out of reviewers jerking scouts around because they didn't have enough detail.  Remember it was just a blank sheet of paper.  Scouts had up to 8 reviews before approval and some just gave up.  BSA Advancement said enough of this stupidity and we (and I helped) wrote the GTA and EP documents.   Are there still boneheads who jerk scouts around - absolutely unfortunately.

So...The Proposal-Final Plan (now Project plan)- Project report was started to give the scout more structure on what they needed to consider as this is the first time they have ever had to take on something like this.  Is this a perfect document?

Not sure what project detail in the proposal section is too much

What are you going to do

Why does this help the beneficiary

How many helpers do you guess you need

Broad idea of the stuff you need to pull this off

Do you need to ask for any permissions outside the sponsor

Ballpark cost

What are the next steps

How do you get the stuff and people to your worksite

Safety

Work on your Project plan

 

The Project plan basically takes the above categories and puts some meat to them.  For example I need wood to make a picnic table (Proposal)  I need X number of boards (Project Plan), I need 10 helpers (Proposal)  to I need 2 BSA adults, an adult to cut the boards and a diagram on the steps.   The Project plan also has a Work Process section which is basically how do you  envision the workday will go.  Most of the sponsors I know want to see this part to make sure the scout is meeting their expectations and get off the rails.

I'll suggest that a scout needs to fill out the majority (if not all) of this section or his picnic table will look like I made it. 

 

The Project report is just what it says and usually can be completed the night after all the work is done.

[DuctTape]

Deleted

Edited March 9, 2023 by DuctTape

[InquisitiveScouter]

31 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Deleted

Awww.... I wanted to see that 😛 

[Chisos]

We've had a few scouts in my troop complete projects in the past few months, and also ran into this question ("Is the Plan a required element of the Eagle Application...").  From how it's described it is kind of ambiguous.

I can see how using the Plan document can be taken as the documentation that the "planning" part of the Eagle project was done, but since projects are so diverse it may not be the best fit for all of them.   Maybe a revision along the lines of "A project plan must be completed after the proposal is approved and before work begins.  You may use the Project Plan document in the Eagle Project Workbook, or write your own plan using a similar level of detail."   At any rate, jumping straight from "big picture" proposal to working on the project is not a great idea...the scout should have something that shows they thought about the details before work began.

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

A bit of history...the current EP workbook was borne out of reviewers jerking scouts around because they didn't have enough detail.  Remember it was just a blank sheet of paper.  Scouts had up to 8 reviews before approval and some just gave up.  BSA Advancement said enough of this stupidity and we (and I helped) wrote the GTA and EP documents.   Are there still boneheads who jerk scouts around - absolutely unfortunately.

So...The Proposal-Final Plan (now Project plan)- Project report was started to give the scout more structure on what they needed to consider as this is the first time they have ever had to take on something like this.  Is this a perfect document?

Not sure what project detail in the proposal section is too much

What are you going to do

Why does this help the beneficiary

How many helpers do you guess you need

Broad idea of the stuff you need to pull this off

Do you need to ask for any permissions outside the sponsor

Ballpark cost

What are the next steps

How do you get the stuff and people to your worksite

Safety

Work on your Project plan

 

The Project plan basically takes the above categories and puts some meat to them.  For example I need wood to make a picnic table (Proposal)  I need X number of boards (Project Plan), I need 10 helpers (Proposal)  to I need 2 BSA adults, an adult to cut the boards and a diagram on the steps.   The Project plan also has a Work Process section which is basically how do you  envision the workday will go.  Most of the sponsors I know want to see this part to make sure the scout is meeting their expectations and get off the rails.

I'll suggest that a scout needs to fill out the majority (if not all) of this section or his picnic table will look like I made it. 

 

The Project report is just what it says and usually can be completed the night after all the work is done.

Unfortunately, in these parts, the district or council proposal reviewers are asking for more "planning" details in the proposal phase than are needed, IMHO.

This is before they will green light the project (with a signature.)

I think we should put in some way to restrict input/demand from the council advancement reps.  In my seven years here, this has always been the hold up... often with a back-and0forth of two or three times requesting "sufficient detail" on the proposal in order to grant approval.  So, the Scouts do the research... for example, drawing up specific plans for a 16 foot footbridge, including board dimensions and length needed, and the number of screws needed, along with a schedule of work, etc.  Again, these are Planning details, not Proposal details...

Around here, the phrase is "feed the dragon."  With the Dragon being the council advancement rep who is approving the proposal. 

In the military, the joke went like this:  The major says, "I want a rock!"  The sergeant brings a rock.  The major says, "That's not the rock I want!"  The sergeant says, "What kind of rock do you want, sir?"  The major says, "I don't know, bring me another rock and I'll let you know if that one is right!"  That's kind of how the ESSP workbook process goes here...   

[Chisos]

59 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Unfortunately, in these parts, the district or council proposal reviewers are asking for more "planning" details in the proposal phase than are needed, IMHO.

This is before they will green light the project (with a signature.)

 

It appears experiences are varied here...our local district rep who approves projects has really only been looking at "big picture"....is the scope reasonable, has the beneficiary signed off, how is "success" defined, stuff like that.

The "how many nuts and bolts' details (often literally!) don't need to be in the proposal.  If that's what's being asked for at the proposal stage it sounds exactly like what @PACAN was trying to avoid, (rightly so) and should be addressed through document or procedure revision.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Chisos
Grammar