Fundraising and Insurance

[Eagle94-A1]

Folks,

Has anyone ever heard that you are not covered by BSA's insurance if you do a fundraiser, and their is no Fundraising Application? I saw this comment on a FB post, and it sound funny. I was told that the purpose of the Fundraising application was to A. stay in United Way's good graces, i.e. not fundraise when they are and B. to avoid solicitating donations from companies that the council is going after.

[RichardB]

Assuming this is reference to General Liability insurance I'd point you to materials published in the Guide to Safe Scouting, Insurance (emphasis added) https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss10/#a

This coverage provides primary general liability coverage for registered adults of the Boy Scouts of America who serve in a volunteer or professional capacity concerning claims arising out of an official Scouting activity, which is defined in the insurance policy as consistent with the values, Charter and Bylaws, Rules and Regulations, operations manuals, and applicable literature of the Boy Scouts of America. 

The Unit fundraising application is a requirement.  https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34427.pdf  The second page actually goes into the why's as you answer the questions.   

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

To answer your question @Eagle94-A1, 

No, haven't heard of this.  But, doing a fundraiser without your council's approval does put the unit's insurance coverage in jeopardy, potentially.

Note the boldface at the bottom of the application that @RichardB linked to:

"The local council is responsible for upholding the Charter and By-laws and the Rules and Regulations of the BSA. To ensure compliance, all unit fund-raisers MUST OBTAIN WRITTEN APPROVAL from the local council NO LESS THAN 14 DAYS before the fund-raising activity"

Now, the primary reason for the council approval is your point B:  they want to make sure you aren't dipping into their honey pot.  Of course, they'll never admit this.

The secondary reason is to make sure you are doing an activity that is consistent with all BSA policies.  Prohibited sales would include things like lottery tickets, fireworks (with live demos),  Howitzer cannons (with even better live demos), Girl Scout cookies ( 😜 ), etc, etc, etc.

The tertiary reason is to alert council of the fundraiser, and to give them the opportunity to speak with adult leaders about it, if there are any concerns, such as the unit's Scouts soliciting people for donations (verboten)...

Never heard any voiced concerns over interfering in a United Way campaign.  But the application does mention this "Does the fund-raising activity avoid competition with other units, your chartered organization, your local council, and the United Way?"  I have had discussions with council over concerns with interfering with other units conducting a fundraiser at the same time.

More blather on this at:

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/02/02/unit-fundraising-dos-and-donts/

Edited March 5, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[sierracharliescouter]

The way insurance policies often work, however, is there would likely need to be a substantive reason why the lack of a fundraising application was reasonably causative to the claim for denial. i.e., if your troop is selling meat sticks from company A, but didn't file a fundraising application, and had a claim related to the event, it would be very difficult to deny a claim if the Council would have otherwise approved the application, and even more difficult to deny if they had other troops that had approved applications for selling the same product in a similar way.

The fundamental flaw to this approach is it just sets up opportunities for units to ignore the rules. This is analogous to the old requirement for approved trip plans. It was ridiculous, and put an undue burden on both units and the council, just setting up for people to ignore the rules (which clearly happens all the time with fundraising). BSA needs to get on board with simplifying the volunteer experience, ASAP.

The number one reason we have trouble recruiting adults is the unreasonable time commitments and procedural blockades put on volunteers who want to help, but have trouble figuring out what they need to do, and overwhelmed by the requirements when they learn them. In California, in order for the parent of a new scout to join us on an outing where they have to be a registered scouter, they have to commit to 6 hours of training plus fingerprint background check. BSA registration plus fingerprinting is a minimum of $92.  

Every year the program grows more complicated. It has become a full-on bureaucracy, which it's primary mission to justify it's own existence. It doesn't need to be this way, but BSA's own hiring practices lead to this end, because the focus on internal hiring prevents bringing in new ideas and experiences. People who only "know" the bureaucracy don't grasp the effect it has on those outside it's walls.

Here's another fine example: The BSA Safe Project Tool Use rules. The guide includes this statement:

Quote

"The safety of our Scouts, volunteers, employees, and communities is our top priority. This document outlines several minimum guiding protocols that adult leaders and other volunteers must consider for Scouting service projects that include the use of tools. It is not intended to cover the use of tools integrated into advancement requirements (i.e., merit badges, handbooks, or adventures)."

So, the document grid says that Cubs can't use handsaws, yet we teach them how to use hand saws in Baloo the Builder. Why would we teach them a skill and then not let them use it? Does anyone at BSA actually understand their own program??  That is not the only inconsistency. Again, when you make rules that are internally inconsistent, people will feel much more comfortable breaking the rules. Part of my job for over 25 years has been safety supervision, and rule number one for safety rules is to not provide motivations for ignoring the rules. 

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by sierracharliescouter

[InquisitiveScouter]

6 minutes ago, sierracharliescouter said:

The way insurance policies often work, however, is there would likely need to be a substantive reason why the lack of a fundraising application was reasonably causative to the claim for denial. i.e., if your troop is selling meat sticks from company A, but didn't file a fundraising application, and had a claim related to the event, it would be very difficult to deny a claim if the Council would have otherwise approved the application, and even more difficult to deny if they had other troops that had approved applications for selling the same product in a similar way.

The fundamental flaw to this approach is it just sets up opportunities for units to ignore the rules. This is analogous to the old requirement for approved trip plans. It was ridiculous, and put an undue burden on both units and the council, just setting up for people to ignore the rules (which clearly happens all the time with fundraising). BSA needs to get on board with simplifying the volunteer experience, ASAP.

The number one reason we have trouble recruiting adults is the unreasonable time commitments and procedural blockades put on volunteers who want to help, but have trouble figuring out what they need to do, and overwhelmed by the requirements when they learn them. In California, in order for the parent of a new scout to join us on an outing where they have to be a registered scouter, they have to commit to 6 hours of training plus fingerprint background check. BSA registration plus fingerprinting is a minimum of $92.  

Every year the program grows more complicated. It has become a full-on bureaucracy, which it's primary mission to justify it's own existence. It doesn't need to be this way, but BSA's own hiring practices lead to this end, because the focus on internal hiring prevents bringing in new ideas and experiences. People who only "know" the bureaucracy don't grasp the effect it has on those outside it's walls.

Here's another fine example: The BSA Safe Project Tool Use rules. The guide includes this statement:

So, the document grid says that Cubs can't use handsaws, yet we teach them how to use hand saws in Baloo the Builder. Why would we teach them a skill and then not let them use it? Does anyone at BSA actually understand their own program??  That is not the only inconsistency. Again, when you make rules that are internally inconsistent, people will feel much more comfortable breaking the rules. Part of my job for over 25 years has been safety supervision, and rule number one for safety rules is to not provide motivations for ignoring the rules. 

 

[5thGenTexan]

On 3/5/2023 at 12:13 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

To answer your question @Eagle94-A1, 

No, haven't heard of this.  But, doing a fundraiser without your council's approval does put the unit's insurance coverage in jeopardy, potentially.

Note the boldface at the bottom of the application that @RichardB linked to:

"The local council is responsible for upholding the Charter and By-laws and the Rules and Regulations of the BSA. To ensure compliance, all unit fund-raisers MUST OBTAIN WRITTEN APPROVAL from the local council NO LESS THAN 14 DAYS before the fund-raising activity"

Now, the primary reason for the council approval is your point B:  they want to make sure you aren't dipping into their honey pot.  Of course, they'll never admit this.

The secondary reason is to make sure you are doing an activity that is consistent with all BSA policies.  Prohibited sales would include things like lottery tickets, fireworks (with live demos),  Howitzer cannons (with even better live demos), Girl Scout cookies ( 😜 ), etc, etc, etc.

The tertiary reason is to alert council of the fundraiser, and to give them the opportunity to speak with adult leaders about it, if there are any concerns, such as the unit's Scouts soliciting people for donations (verboten)...

Never heard any voiced concerns over interfering in a United Way campaign.  But the application does mention this "Does the fund-raising activity avoid competition with other units, your chartered organization, your local council, and the United Way?"  I have had discussions with council over concerns with interfering with other units conducting a fundraiser at the same time.

More blather on this at:

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/02/02/unit-fundraising-dos-and-donts/

You forgot...  they want thier cut.  

[Eagle94-A1]

15 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

You forgot...  they want their cut.  

A few of the reasons why folks in my neck of the woods do not use them are 1) Council has a habit of losing paperwork, even hand-delivered paperwork, 2, they never received word if the fundraiser was approved or not, and 3) one SE did indeed demand 10%-15% of the profits for it to be approved. This is the same SE who yelled and cursed out district level volunteers, causing them to quit. As you can imagine, that did not go over well.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

A few of the reasons why folks in my neck of the woods do not use them are 1) Council has a habit of losing paperwork, even hand-delivered paperwork, 2, they never received word if the fundraiser was approved or not, and 3) one SE did indeed demand 10%-15% of the profits for it to be approved. This is the same SE who yelled and cursed out district level volunteers, causing them to quit. As you can imagine, that did not go over well.

 

Whenever we turn in the paperwork, we operate under the assumption that is is approved unless we hear otherwise.  We do not allow a lack of action on council's part to stop our efforts.

Now, we do turn in the paperwork at least one month ahead of time, and we follow up with two weeks remaining.  That is ample opportunity for council to voice any concerns.

And if anyone ever asked for a cut, we tell them they are more than welcome to work in the fundraiser with us, and have their percentage share from whatever they sell.  (That is, part of their fundraising goes to our unit 😜 )