Why have Scouts?

[InquisitiveScouter]

21 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Lazy adults bother me.

An age old problem, my friend...

How old is the story of the Ant and the Grasshopper??

[qwazse]

All of the above is why I advocate “forestalling death” vs. “having fun” or even “be prepared.” The latter are are scout-facing goals. Preparedness is a path to saving life. Fun is much more probable when survival is maximized.

Mastering preparedness is its own kind of fun. But, that’s still an inward-facing answer to “why scouts.” If we want someone to sponsor a troop over many decades, that sponsor needs to know that what it’s doing is bigger than the sum of its parts.

[Mrjeff]

I've been around troops who had their meetings by playing basketball and it was fun.  Before they played ball they had an opening ceremony and patrol meetings where they planned their own meals without adult influence.  If they wanted bologna and Captain Crunch every meal, then that's what they had.  Has anyone ever taken kids to the grocery store and helped them shop for their food?  If not, why not?  They are expected to do things that they don't know how to do and once they know how to do it they enjoy doing it which spells FUN. 

[5thGenTexan]

6 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

I've been around troops who had their meetings by playing basketball and it was fun.  Before they played ball they had an opening ceremony and patrol meetings where they planned their own meals without adult influence.  If they wanted bologna and Captain Crunch every meal, then that's what they had.  Has anyone ever taken kids to the grocery store and helped them shop for their food?  If not, why not?  They are expected to do things that they don't know how to do and once they know how to do it they enjoy doing it which spells FUN. 

I took my AOL Den to the grocery store with a menu they had developed and we talked about store brand vs generic in various parts of the store.  Went through the entire store to see what was available and where everything was.  

Edited March 7, 2023 by 5thGenTexan

[Mrjeff]

This is what I mean by adults overthinking, over evaluating, over supervising and overregulating a whole great big organization.  Much of what is stated as fact are nothing more then someone's good idea that is not based on research.  Rather, it's based on emotion and theory.  The age old question of what forms a person; environment, social standing, education, early childhood development, nuclear family, diet, etc.  By the time a child reaches Scout age much of their persona has been formed.  With everything that they are exposed to and the pressure they feel as they try to establish their own identity, what's wrong with Scouting being a positive outlet that focuses on just having fun?  

[Eagledad]

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

Mastering preparedness is its own kind of fun. But, that’s still an inward-facing answer to “why scouts.” If we want someone to sponsor a troop over many decades, that sponsor needs to know that what it’s doing is bigger than the sum of its parts.

I believe one of a DE's main responsibilities should be teaching sponsors "how" what they are doing is bigger than the sum of the parts. Truth of the matter is that from the outside, the parts (mastering preparedness) can look quite messy and unappealing. 

Barry

Edited March 7, 2023 by Eagledad

[InquisitiveScouter]

9 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

This is what I mean by adults overthinking, over evaluating, over supervising and overregulating a whole great big organization.  Much of what is stated as fact are nothing more then someone's good idea that is not based on research.  Rather, it's based on emotion and theory.  The age old question of what forms a person; environment, social standing, education, early childhood development, nuclear family, diet, etc.  By the time a child reaches Scout age much of their persona has been formed.  With everything that they are exposed to and the pressure they feel as they try to establish their own identity, what's wrong with Scouting being a positive outlet that focuses on just having fun?  

Because the idea that "Scouting is a positive outlet that focuses on just having fun" is too limited, and unappealing to two of the three (or four?) stakeholders in Scouting.

Each of the three (or four) groups of stakeholders in Scouting has a different agenda.

1.  Youth - want fun and adventure

2.  Parents - want safety and personal growth for their children at a reasonable expenditure  (or some primarily want a resume bullet)

3.  The CO/Community/Country - wants productive citizens

(4. Volunteers - want to have a positive impact on lives and the future of our country... or maybe just some knots on a uniform 😜 )

Scouting is a program designed to meet all three (four?) agendas.  So, if you want it to be successful, you have to address each.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[InquisitiveScouter]

Well, five stakeholders...

5.  Boy Scouts of America - wants money (and there is never enough)

... and it clearly is structured to meet that agenda.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

https://youtu.be/FAxkcPoLYcQ

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[Eagledad]

4 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

This is what I mean by adults overthinking, over evaluating, over supervising and overregulating a whole great big organization.  Much of what is stated as fact are nothing more then someone's good idea that is not based on research.  Rather, it's based on emotion and theory.  The age old question of what forms a person; environment, social standing, education, early childhood development, nuclear family, diet, etc.  By the time a child reaches Scout age much of their persona has been formed.  With everything that they are exposed to and the pressure they feel as they try to establish their own identity, what's wrong with Scouting being a positive outlet that focuses on just having fun?  

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but, ignorance isn't always bliss. Most of the time continued failures are the result of not getting enough information to succeed. Eating cereal out of the box can be fun, but learning how to prepare nutritious meals on a budget is a skill is not typical of teenagers outside of troops. My 64 year old sister confessed not to long ago that she always enjoyed me fixing breakfast when we were in high school because they were delicious. Then she asked me how I learned to cook such good meals. Well, it wasn't mom.

There is always the struggle for us experienced scouters to teach "scout run" without crossing the line to paint a picture of a program that is "scout run into the ground." All I can say is that the troop is an adult program for developing young people into moral and ethical decision makers. Adults are simply part of the equation. That being said, outside of the troop assembly, scouts will rarely see the adults in a mature scout run program because the scouts grow and mature into adult decision makers.

One last thing. In the last couple months, 3 young men who were scouts when I was a scouts approached me to say hello. Each are close to 40 years old with three kids the same age as my grand kids, and I didn't recognize a single one of them. Thank God that I haven't change so much yet that they didn't recognize me because my wife and I enjoyed talking to them so much. They were part of a troop that grew from 15 scouts to 100 scouts in six years. I had the reputation of the most boy run scoutmaster in the district, and that wasn't considered a complement by most scouters at the time. But, a lot of scoutmasters reached out to us for help because our troop also had more scouts over the age of 14 than in other unit (troop, Venturing, or whatever) in Oklahoma. Our program looked radical to most other leaders, but those 3 scouts that approached me the last couple of months couldn't express enough of how much fun they had in our troop.  

So, there is a balance between letting scouts do want to do for fun, and providing enough structure and resources so the fun also develops life long skills for the next generation they raise.  

Barry

[Mrjeff]

First of all, I never suggested that Scouting should be "Just Fun".  Also, adults who want to feel good about themselves should reevaluate their role in Scouting.  Adults and youth alike participate because Scouting is fun.  If the adults aren't having fun then the aren't either.  If the kids aren't having fun then they simply quit and then the adults are  no longer needed.   It's not that hard to make planning a good menu and then shopping for food a fun activity.  It's not that hard to make cooking a great meal fun.  It's not that hard to learning about good citizenship fun.  It's not that hard to make the whole Scouting experience fun but it does take effort on the part of the adults.  If you have had the privilege of guiding a young person through their journey to Eagle, then onto adulthood and success, take a minute and ask that person what is their best memory in Scouting.  I have NEVER been told that it was the visit to City Court or learning how to create a personal budget.  Rather, they'll say something about a disastrous camping trip where everything went wrong but they had fun.  Relatively speaking, most kids have a very limited exposure to Scouting so when we have that limited time we must endeavor to provide them a fun experience that they enjoy and leave them wanting more. 

[Mrjeff]

25 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but, ignorance isn't always bliss. Most of the time continued failures are the result of not getting enough information to succeed. Eating cereal out of the box can be fun, but learning how to prepare nutritious meals on a budget is a skill is not typical of teenagers outside of troops. My 64 year old sister confessed not to long ago that she always enjoyed me fixing breakfast when we were in high school because they were delicious. Then she asked me how I learned to cook such good meals. Well, it wasn't mom.

There is always the struggle for us experienced scouters to teach "scout run" without crossing the line to paint a picture of a program that is "scout run into the ground." All I can say is that the troop is an adult program for developing young people into moral and ethical decision makers. Adults are simply part of the equation. That being said, outside of the troop assembly, scouts will rarely see the adults in a mature scout run program because the scouts grow and mature into adult decision makers.

One last thing. In the last couple months, 3 young men who were scouts when I was a scouts approached me to say hello. Each are close to 40 years old with three kids the same age as my grand kids, and I didn't recognize a single one of them. Thank God that I haven't change so much yet that they didn't recognize me because my wife and I enjoyed talking to them so much. They were part of a troop that grew from 15 scouts to 100 scouts in six years. I had the reputation of the most boy run scoutmaster in the district, and that wasn't considered a complement by most scouters at the time. But, a lot of scoutmasters reached out to us for help because our troop also had more scouts over the age of 14 than in other unit (troop, Venturing, or whatever) in Oklahoma. Our program looked radical to most other leaders, but those 3 scouts that approached me the last couple of months couldn't express enough of how much fun they had in our troop.  

So, there is a balance between letting scouts do want to do for fun, and providing enough structure and resources so the fun also develops life long skills for the next generation they raise.  

Barry

I agree that ignorance is not bliss and the role of the adult in Scouting is to reach the goals and aims of Scouting (wich the kids just don't care about) and do it in a way that's fun.  It's just that simple.  Although the concept is simple, the methods of doing this is not and requires thought followed by action on the part of the adults.  I tell folks all of the time that I didn't learn very much from the Marines concerning living in the field.  The Marines give you your stuff, say pack it up and let's go.  Everyone is able to survive, but us old Boy Scouts knew how to be comfortable and thrive.

[Eagledad]

56 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

I agree that ignorance is not bliss and the role of the adult in Scouting is to reach the goals and aims of Scouting (wich the kids just don't care about) and do it in a way that's fun.  It's just that simple.  Although the concept is simple, the methods of doing this is not and requires thought followed by action on the part of the adults.  I tell folks all of the time that I didn't learn very much from the Marines concerning living in the field.  The Marines give you your stuff, say pack it up and let's go.  Everyone is able to survive, but us old Boy Scouts knew how to be comfortable and thrive.

There was a troop in our district with an ex Marine Scoutmaster. And he was very much the same as you describe yourself. I think he was an Eagle. It was the districts 2nd largest troop because the scouts loved him.

Our adults would laugh as I hoped for rain on the new scouts first campout. Nothing teaches confidence more than setting up your first tent in the dark on your first campout. And, if that experience didn’t go well, which was rare, we had the rest of the week end to experience fun. One year a mom told me that her 18 year old son, who was never a scout, asked his 14 year old brother how to pack for a rainy campout with his high school buddies. Mom was so proud.

I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

[MattR]

Whenever I list out the scout methods I add two: fun and service. Fun is an odd idea. Everyone knows it when they see it but it sure is hard to define. It's also dependent on each person. An eight year old's idea of fun is a lot different from a 12 or 16 year old. Fun is also something that changes. Gaga ball is fun, for awhile. Just like zip lines. One thing missing from the BSA is that playing is one of the best ways to learn something. The first thing I want to do when I get a new tool is to play with it. Another challenge the BSA has is understanding the how hard it is to keep a program fun. Advancement all on its own is not fun. It takes imagination. It also takes discipline to let the scouts find their own fun where it arises, like in a snow bank or at a stream. Again, when you see fun, it's obvious, but often we walk right by.

To me, this is fundamental to what scouting offers. Learn how to find and have fun, within the confines of the oath and law, and you'll do well.

[Mrjeff]

It look like Eagledad, MattR and I share a grand philosophy as far as Scouting goes.

[Eagledad]

5 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

First of all, I never suggested that Scouting should be "Just Fun".  Also, adults who want to feel good about themselves should reevaluate their role in Scouting.  Adults and youth alike participate because Scouting is fun.  If the adults aren't having fun then the aren't either.  If the kids aren't having fun then they simply quit and then the adults are  no longer needed.   It's not that hard to make planning a good menu and then shopping for food a fun activity.  It's not that hard to make cooking a great meal fun.  It's not that hard to learning about good citizenship fun.  It's not that hard to make the whole Scouting experience fun but it does take effort on the part of the adults.  If you have had the privilege of guiding a young person through their journey to Eagle, then onto adulthood and success, take a minute and ask that person what is their best memory in Scouting.  I have NEVER been told that it was the visit to City Court or learning how to create a personal budget.  Rather, they'll say something about a disastrous camping trip where everything went wrong but they had fun.  Relatively speaking, most kids have a very limited exposure to Scouting so when we have that limited time we must endeavor to provide them a fun experience that they enjoy and leave them wanting more. 

I didn't see this before, so my apologies for the late response.

The word "fun" is being over used in this discussion implying that it is the main reason for scouts staying with the program, even to Eagle. We talked about fun a lot in our troop to the point that the scouts were encourage to change any activity to be more fun when they felt it wasn't. 

That being said, my observation isn't that the fun experiences are the reason scouts are motivated to continually participate in the troop program week after week. There is a famous very old book some here know where the author basically says that the satisfaction from fun is temporary and grows old because fun things in general don't stimulate moral and intellectual growth. The path toward a rewarding life is a path of continued interpersonal growth that comes from gaining wisdom.

We were not a troop that pushed earning the Eagle as a higher priority than the methods of Scouting. Yet, we averaging at one time a new Eagle every three months. That is an astonishing accomplishment even for a Eagle Factory, at least around here. But, Eagle wasn't a talked about goal in the big picture of our program. It was just a byproduct of scouts who liked coming to our program.

I believe we had that kind of result because we pushed a program where any scout at anytime could work toward any rank accomplishment he wanted. And because we pushed a program where older scouts wanted to come each week to feel like equals with the adult staff.

Almost 50 percent of our scouts were 14 and older. I once asked each scout if the outdoor adventure part of our program was the reason they stayed in scouting. We had a very active (and fun) outdoor program that included typically 6 high adventure treks a year. Only 20 percent said they stayed because of the outdoor program. So, why were the other 80% hanging around?

While fun and adventure are good carrots to entice trying out an activity, it is how one feels about themselves after the activity that keeps them coming. My sons loved paint ball. But, the fun shooting paint balls at stationary targets lost its luster pretty quick. So they started going to paintball meets where they became part of team that competed against other teams that won by having the last man survive. They found the meets exciting because the teams were required to use their intellect to creating strategy for the team to dominate the other teams., and continued growth of skills to hit moving targets. We humans need more than fun for continued practice. We human needs growth.

At all ages, scouts are stimulated from the challenge of growth. And, while learning outdoor skills satisfies those skills, eventually those skills are mastered, typically by age 14. But, the growth of developing character and moral integrity continue forever. Even for adults. And nothing challenges those areas for scouts better  than responsibility. Sadly, scouting has pushed leadership as the main, and many times, the only type of responsibility that furthers one character. But, there are as many different actions of responsibility as there are personalities. When a scout joined our troop, he was given the responsibility of grubmaster or cheermaster. And they were trained in those responsibilities by the patrols, but more important, those scouts were given a responsibility that fit there maturity, and forced them to become a part of a team with expectations. They had to perform to fit with the team. And they learned quickly what skills like communication needed to improve.

By the time a scout is about 14 or 15, they have pretty much "been there and done that" in the troop program. Especially when it comes to FUN. So, what motivates them to continue coming to the program. Personal Growth. Growth comes in a lot of ways, but it usually has the effect of showing the scout where they are experts, or need change. As most of us know, growth is stimulated by failure, not success. Finding satisfaction requires mastering the skills to replace failure with success. Scout of all ages needs challenges for their maturity that shows them where they need to change and grow. Older scouts are challenging for adults because their maturity requires adult level responsibilities for them to make wrong decisions that motive actions to master those failures. 

Challenging each scout toward activities that put them at risk of making bad decisions forces the adults to get to know each scout well enough to develop a path that pushes a scout to grow and feel good about themselves. Often the scout can get pushed to hard and choose to quit coming. Forcing the adults to reevaluate their approach. It's a challenging program for everyone. But, it is also deeply stimulating, and satisfying.

So, while we keep throwing around the word FUN as the primary approach to keeping scouts in the program, I like to think of FUN more of a catch-all word that encompasses all the reasons scouts are motivated to spend a few hours every week in the scout program. 

Barry

Edited March 7, 2023 by Eagledad