Why have Scouts?

[Mrjeff]

If the program isn't any fun, then nobody wants to participate.  Nobody wants to do something that is a drag, tedious, unpleasant or nasty. In other words, it isn't any fun.  The best way to keep something from being too much fun is to stop the activity before it comes to a natural end. Again this requires active and engaged adults.

[MattR]

On 3/7/2023 at 3:44 PM, Eagledad said:

The word "fun" is being over used in this discussion implying that it is the main reason for scouts staying with the program, even to Eagle.

You seem to not like that word. How about enjoy instead? I enjoy learning new skills as well as working with the scouts. And when it comes to scouts, of any age, if there's joy then there's also fun. If the scouts are not having some related fun then I suspect there is no joy and it's become a grind, very much like what happens to adults.

This all gets really contorted as to what the difference is between fun and joy. I've read things that suggest a difference but then I looked at the definitions and they refer to each other. I suspect fun is what children, and adults acting childish, do while joy is what adults strive for. That explains why fun can't be the center of a program that's trying to raise young adults. I mean, ethical decision making is what adults do- that can't be fun.

And yet, think about ethical decision making that doesn't include joy. That's where I see burned out volunteers and fed up, angry volunteers. This is not a scouter thing. It's our society. The number of volunteers has plummeted in recent years. Maybe it's because, when people were young, they never learned to have fun, or enjoy, helping others. Maybe they saw it as a slog that they had to do rather then something they could enjoy. Happiness today comes from an app.

So, yes, I think fun is important as a way to finding joy. That doesn't at all mean all meetings can be ice-cream and Gaga ball. It means that all the skills scouts learn should be done in a fun environment, so they learn how to enjoy doing all the things scouts should do. That's why I think fun should be a method.

Also, Barry, I know you find joy in scouting when you sign many of your posts with:

On 3/7/2023 at 12:14 PM, Eagledad said:

I love this scouting stuff

 

[SiouxRanger]

BSA is in the entertainment business, pure and simple.  Sort of like Disney.  No fun, no one pays attention and no one comes back.  Certainly as far the scouts are concerned.

Excitement, challenges, new ideas, new experiences. Time spent with friends. Growth as a person. But all occurs in the tiniest of increments. But "fun."  It has to be.

"EDGE" Method has a significant "do" element.

That is the overlay.

The underlay is the Scouting program the adults facilitate:  real life skills (life-saving at times), principles of living decently and responsibly, moral principles (Scout Law), being helpful, seeing beyond oneself and one's selfish wants (they aren't needs, really), that by making a difference for others one enhances oneself.

At 69, I still stand amazed at the number of times I have read of someone stating in the middle of their career life that they were influenced to their career field because of something they experienced in their youth.

Bingo!

And that is why Scouting is so important: That Youth (probably all of them) who are adrift in their chaotic thoughts of self (who am I?, what is life?, work?, a job, a career?…) get exposed to all sorts of fields of study, jobs, etc.

In Scouting they get exposed to INTERESTING THINGS.  And, through Scouting a full smorgasoard of career (interest) fields are laid before them. And they have a better chance of choosing a career aligned with their interests.

And THAT why I participate as I do.

[JSL3300]

This is so relevant to a conversation we've been having with our oldest son. He crossed over last year and the biggest shock to his system is how un-fun Boy Scouts is vs Cub Scouts. I love that distinction between joy and fun, because I actually think what is missing from his troop is joy. Even the things that really could be fun are often not because there's not joy behind it. That's really interesting and something to think on. 

Honestly, being in this troop has been hard on my typically joyful son. He just doesn't get why they're all so grouchy! We're playing in the woods, what is there to be grouchy about?! That said, it's been incredibly character forming. He has learned so much about what kind of leader he doesn't want to be, about changing the culture of a group from within, about maintaining joy when you're with grumps, and asking questions and being curious even when there's a good chance your question is going to be met with eye rolls. We've given him the option to switch to another troop, but he's like, "I want to see what I can do here first." 

I think that to overcome the tendency for teenage grumpiness and apathy, adult leadership that is strong in joy is probably a necessity.

I am a Webelos den leader for my younger son and I've been just about sick at the idea of sending my precious scouts who have been led so far with joy and the desire to nourish into this troop. I will not be taking on a large leadership role at the Boy Scout level so it feels like feeding them to wolves, but hopefully they'll go forward with how they've been scouting all along and it will slowly make a change. 

Thanks for giving words and new ideas to something that's been floating in my head a lot lately. I'll be following this discussion because I think it's important. 
 

[qwazse]

@JSL3300 it may be appropriate to consider other troops. Or, even other youth programs. I admire your son trying to turn the tide, and it is often possible for a scout to reset his patrol/troop culture. But, that depends on the SMs and ASMs intentionally supporting the scout's endeavors.

There could be a back-story as to why this troop seems to be joyless. I am told that a scout is cheerful. If one is not leading cheerfully, then what is one doing? You might not be in troop leadership, but maybe you could find some time to chat with an SM/ASM about the troop culture. I personally really appreciate when a parent touches base with me about their scout's concerns -- be it troop life or something else.

[qwazse]

Regarding fun ... scouting should be fun. But, that doesn't address "why scouting?" That's because lots of things are fun. But many things that are fun are either extremely hazardous or utterly trivial.

Fun is a by-product of skill mastery. Skill mastery in an ethical framework is fun with a purpose. Thus fun is not an end in itself, but a means of reaching those ends.

[Eagledad]

10 hours ago, MattR said:

You seem to not like that word. How about enjoy instead? I enjoy learning new skills as well as working with the scouts. And when it comes to scouts, of any age, if there's joy then there's also fun. If the scouts are not having some related fun then I suspect there is no joy and it's become a grind, very much like what happens to adults.

You nailed it. 

I don't know if the problem is burned out adults, or if they just don't know how. I've said here many times that I find difference between flourishing troops and troops that struggle is the flourishing troops have adults who were scouts as a youth. Those adults remember what made their scouting experience fun, and insure it is part of their program with a purpose. And as you said the adults need to have fun too, they find the Joy is having fun program.

I think the problem is adults often fixate on the outcome and not enough on the fun components that give joy  the experience  to get mix up what the purpose of the program. 

I saw this kind of thing at Wood Badge. Many of the staff and the participants were so focused on outcome that they couldn't enjoy the activities that gave them experiences to feed the outcomes. My nature is bit of being a class clown and I worked very hard to dilute the serious outcome perspective. But, it was concerning to me. No wonder so many folks complain they didn't get anything out of WB. They didn't look for joy in the camping and comradery.

Great perspective, thanks.

Barry

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

Thank you to everyone who has participated in this discussion!

I am developing next year's bear schedule right now, and since my own scouting experience was in a different NSO that didn't have something like cub scouts at the time, this has been tremendously helpful in determining what kind of programming philosophy to use. 

Hearing a variety of viewpoints has been very enriching, and now that my scout and I have been in the pack for a year and a half I see some of the points made reflected in the kids, especially my own. I also see I'm not alone in taking certain approaches, so I'm probably not bucking some BSA tradition in doing that, which is also good to know. Thank you all.

[Mrjeff]

14 hours ago, qwazse said:

Regarding fun ... scouting should be fun. But, that doesn't address "why scouting?" That's because lots of things are fun. But many things that are fun are either extremely hazardous or utterly trivial.

Fun is a by-product of skill mastery. Skill mastery in an ethical framework is fun with a purpose. Thus fun is not an end in itself, but a means of reaching those ends.

I think that you have this absolutly and completly backwards and the proof is displayed in the decline of the whole Scouting world.  The focus must be on the fun and the byproducts are all the things that adults think are important.  I would hate to be involved in a unit that has this backwards.  What a terrible and distasteful this would be.  

[Mrjeff]

14 hours ago, Eagledad said:

You nailed it. 

I don't know if the problem is burned out adults, or if they just don't know how. I've said here many times that I find difference between flourishing troops and troops that struggle is the flourishing troops have adults who were scouts as a youth. Those adults remember what made their scouting experience fun, and insure it is part of their program with a purpose. And as you said the adults need to have fun too, they find the Joy is having fun program.

I think the problem is adults often fixate on the outcome and not enough on the fun components that give joy  the experience  to get mix up what the purpose of the program. 

I saw this kind of thing at Wood Badge. Many of the staff and the participants were so focused on outcome that they couldn't enjoy the activities that gave them experiences to feed the outcomes. My nature is bit of being a class clown and I worked very hard to dilute the serious outcome perspective. But, it was concerning to me. No wonder so many folks complain they didn't get anything out of WB. They didn't look for joy in the camping and comradery.

Great perspective, thanks.

Barry

Amen, amen, and AMEN!!!  You hit the nail on the head.  Thank you for sharing your insite!

[InquisitiveScouter]

On 3/4/2023 at 2:36 PM, Mrjeff said:

Can anyone provide a TWO WORD statement answering the question why have Scouts?  Not one word, not three words, TWO WORDS as to why have Scouts.  As I have said in the past I have never heard a youngster say that they wanted to be a Scout to learn lessons, gain maturity or become a leader.  I did hear one say that he wanted to go to the US Air Force Academy and needed to put that he was an Eagle Scout on his application.  Scouts is there to let kids have fun, period.  It's so good to stand in the background and watch kids have fun.  Watch them play, ride bikes, try new things and see new places, or just hang out and talk with friends.  That's why we have Scouts and unfortunately there isn't much of that left.  Adults have litigated, interfered and regulated a whole bunch of fun right out of the BSA.  Rather then standing on a river bank watching kids climb a tree and jump into the water, the adult has to consider the outcome of the lawsuit if someone gets hurt.  Let the kids ride their bikes?  Only if they wear a helmet,  gloves, hard soled shoe's, knee pads and elbow pads.  It's not the kids fault, all of this is brought about by the actions of self serving adults. We rode bikes in swim trunks, period.  No shirt, shoe's or gloves and we all made it.  Sure there were a lot of cuts, bruises, shinned knees and bloody noses on the boys and the girls and we made it. With all of the money spent by BSA figuring out what can't be done, perhaps some money and thought should go into the what can we do to let the kids just have fu n😞

Illuminates purpose!!

I have thought for a few days on this...  and the article below points to the why.

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/teen-girls-struggling-mental-illness-record-levels-many-persistently-sad-data-reveals

BTW, the points in this article specifically apply to males, as well.

https://www.familyeducation.com/teens/values-responsibilities/helping-teens-find-purpose

https://yourteenmag.com/health/teenager-mental-health/purposeful-lives

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_to_help_teens_find_purpose

Read those three articles, and you will find Scouting at its core.

Without a sense of purpose, life is meaningless and unfulfilling.  As Scouts mature, starting at about the 11-12 year mark, they seek this for themselves.  "Why am I here." 

I contend that Scouting helps them find their way to answer this for themselves.

[DuctTape]

My two words:

 

"outdoor adventure"

[InquisitiveScouter]

13 hours ago, DuctTape said:

My two words:

 

"outdoor adventure"

These are the two words for the youth!

As I laid out earlier, there are several target audiences for Scouting, not just the youth.  Any strategies to increase membership must identify and appeal to each of those audiences.

[qwazse]

15 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Illuminates purpose!!

Without a sense of purpose, life is meaningless and unfulfilling.  As Scouts mature, starting at about the 11-12 year mark, they seek this for themselves.  "Why am I here." 

I contend that Scouting helps them find their way to answer this for themselves.

I like @InquisitiveScouter’s proposition. The Rev. Rick Warren tapped into something similar with the very well received Purpose Driven Life. It seems that it’s not just young people facing this particular existential crisis. But the problem remains that, although it may be true of scouting, it might not be unique to scouting.

I just had a SM conference for a scout who was up for 2nd class rank. I asked him what requirement he found to be the hardest. He said the ones about financial management. I later asked him about the one he enjoyed the most. He thought a moment and said the same ones about financial management. Although they weren’t fun at the time, there was a huge sense of pride and accomplishment.

Now this is a mundane skill. No doubt the original trail-to-first-class requirement to know how to stop a runaway horse was mundane for its time. But learning skills that come with being part of a complex society are intrinsically fun. That probably has some something to do with illuminating purpose, but I think it has more to do with facing a world of chaos and knowing “You got this.”

[DuctTape]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

These are the two words for the youth!

As I laid out earlier, there are several target audiences for Scouting, not just the youth.  Any strategies to increase membership must identify and appeal to each of those audiences.

Yes., if the youth want to be a scout, then that is all that is necessary. There are other benefits for adults... parents, society etc, but in the end the only target audience that matters is the youth.