Former members at B&G

[Armymutt]

Well, that was fun.  Yesterday was out B&G Banquet.  We had a family show up that, until last Tuesday, hadn't made contact with the pack since October.  They did not recharter this year, never paid dues this academic year, nothing.  I reminded them that they were not members of the Pack and that the banquet was only for Pack members and, apparently, the troop leadership invited by our COR for our AOLs.  We hadn't planned on them either, but they were integral to the crossover that was supposed to take place after the B&G, rather than as the addendum that it turned out to be.  The AOL den leader denies inviting them, as does all the other leadership.  She did however ask if they would be attending, which sounds a lot like an invitation to me, but whatever.  At no point did she remind them that they were not members of BSA, despite them wearing uniforms at the meeting.  I ended up having to be the bad guy because I enforced the policy of pay to play by reminding them that they weren't members of the Pack and had paid no dues toward the execution of the B&G.  Bringing a dish really doesn't matter to me because all of the other families there brought a dish and paid $4/Scout to attend.  Now I'm being told that "a Scout is Friendly" and that we shouldn't have turned them away by the COR.  The family in question also happens to be THE range guy for the District.  I'm willing to bet my paycheck that if some other former member of the Pack showed up and was reminded that the event was not open to the public, no one would have batted an eye.

[mrjohns2]

I commend your ability to hold the line. Even if they "just" paid the $4/Scout (or parent), they still haven't paid the dues and everything else that made the year possible. Should you get blow back? They aren't in the right, but I am not surprised that the "good 'o boy's club" will cause issues. If he is the "go to range guy" he should know this isn't free. Money is part of all of it - be it from the family or fund raisers. If it was my family? I'd say "we are back, it has been a long time, how much to even up for us to get back in the good?" That is what an adult would do. If you said $200, then they shouldn't bat an eye and pay. 

[qwazse]

Our pack typically plans on paying for guests like troop leadership at the B&G, although many of those guests have donated time and $ to the Pack in one way or another.

If the COR says you shouldn't have refused them, then that's it. You can argue about your "if it was some other family" hypothetical when one is at the door. Next year, pad your budget a little for such eventualities.

The most important impact is when this scout may join a troop. If registered but have not completed 5th grade, it's at age 10; if not, age 11. If the youth is 11 already, it's a moot point. But, the troop might appreciate knowing who's available for membership as of a certain date.

Edited February 27, 2023 by qwazse

[MattR]

I might have handled it differently.

A family shows up, with scouts in uniform, to some event and they haven't paid. That's fine. I think the first thing I would have done was consider how much the pack will go into debt for them paying nothing. Apparently it's about $4/scout, so call it $10. Next, I'd consider the shame and embarrassment on these scouts of being turned away. About the same time I'd ask myself why they didn't pay. That's always tough to figure out. They could be just trying to get a free ride, might just be really disorganized, might be broke and too shy to ask for help, or maybe just dealing with something horrible like family troubles, medical issues, ailing parents or the like. So, given $10 vs something I might not understand I probably would have said "welcome, come on in. We haven't seen you in a while. Can we talk later so we can straighten out a few things?"

I'm not sure being the bad guy in public, in front of the scouts, is productive in the long term. I understand that rules were in place but I've learned the hard way that rules sometimes have unintended consequences.

Long story short, friendly might be a way to think about it. And if it helps, add a rule (unknown to the families) that covers friendly.

[mrjohns2]

@MattR Great balanced approach. 

[Armymutt]

The problem is, that one isn't a Scout if one isn't registered, correct?  We don't charge admission to the B&G.  The costs are in the dues that everyone is supposed to pay.  This family didn't pay dues at all this academic year, even when they were registered.  I don't think they are going to pay the $90 in dues and $156 in registration fees at the B&G.  We have been trying to get in contact with them for four months with no response.  They obviously had no intention of joining the Pack when they showed up on the last day for the AOL den to meet.  The event was not open to the general public, and I'd argue that someone not registered in the BSA qualifies as the general public.  At this point, they are the problem of whatever troop they go to.  Let them deal with the dishonesty.  Between the free ride they were getting before I turned the Pack around and got it out of bankruptcy and the claim of earning the AOL despite not attending a den meeting since Oct, I've had it with them.  They have been a massive drain on morale for much of the Pack, to the point that parents have complained to me about it.

[KublaiKen]

An encounter like they had might be a determining factor if they go on to a Troop, and in what they say when recounting their experience in Scouting. For $4 a head? I would like to think I would have handled it like @MattR.

[InquisitiveScouter]

8 hours ago, Armymutt said:

The problem is, that one isn't a Scout if one isn't registered, correct?  We don't charge admission to the B&G.  The costs are in the dues that everyone is supposed to pay.  This family didn't pay dues at all this academic year, even when they were registered.  I don't think they are going to pay the $90 in dues and $156 in registration fees at the B&G.  We have been trying to get in contact with them for four months with no response.  They obviously had no intention of joining the Pack when they showed up on the last day for the AOL den to meet.  The event was not open to the general public, and I'd argue that someone not registered in the BSA qualifies as the general public.  At this point, they are the problem of whatever troop they go to.  Let them deal with the dishonesty.  Between the free ride they were getting before I turned the Pack around and got it out of bankruptcy and the claim of earning the AOL despite not attending a den meeting since Oct, I've had it with them.  They have been a massive drain on morale for much of the Pack, to the point that parents have complained to me about it.

Dealing with "the usual suspects" is always a pain.

Although it is past now, and we do not have all the details and nuances of the situation, it seems the adults in that family were a thorn in your side for some time.  And them showing up out-of-the-blue without having participated in the past few months, paid their way, being incommunicado, and expecting you to award their son an AOL is particularly annoying.

I can definitely empathize with the way you felt and with your desires to oust them.  The parents, that is.

It can helpful to mentally separate the parents from the Scouts.  The young ones probably had no idea what was going on, and they have probably missed out because of the bad decisions or poor time management (whatever you want to call it) of their parents.  And, from the limited details we have, it seems they will continue to have a bad example from their parents on how to interact with others in a group.

If only there was a way this could have been "headed off at the pass", before the B&G incident... 

 

[qwazse]

Although @Armymutt has grievances, and although others may suggest better or worse ways to handle this, we need to start with one bottom line:

The COR wants situations like these to end amicably. That means, although the past cannot change, leaders in this CO need to prepare their unit to be open to people who aren’t contributing to the life of the unit.

There are limits. The advancement method loses its effectiveness when conventions for account are skirted, but a simple conversation with the scout can clear up if he at least gave requirements a try. Morale erodes when one member shows up at multiple event without paying and does not participate in fundraisers, but those are situations that can usually be put in the COR’s lap. On the whole, life is just better if we comply with the CO and move on.

[Armymutt]

A few more details.  The Pack has paid for the adult in this situation to be a registered Assistant Den Leader.  The last time he showed up was at a district campout where he came late and didn't help out with the Pack at all.  He didn't bring the stove that the AOLs needed to do their cooking requirement, so the DL had to scramble.  The former Scout in question told one of our committee members that she really didn't have time for Cub Scouts because she was too busy with Girl Scouts.  Even at the Christmas parade, she showed up in a GSUSA uniform instead of a Cub Scout uniform.  I don't think she cared one way or another.  The CO had the event down for not open to the public, so I kept to those wishes.  The COR comments came after the interaction.  There's a serious lack of communication, despite my best efforts to seek input into both events.  This is the frustrating part of all of it.  

[qwazse]

3 hours ago, Armymutt said:

The COR comments came after the interaction.  There's a serious lack of communication, despite my best efforts to seek input into both events.  This is the frustrating part of all of it.

No surprise that lack of comms is frustrating.

Each time that happens, you need to decide if it's a hill to die on.

Regarding the youth's choice in uniform, do your best to see things through the scout's eyes. She's there to have fun. The stark distinctions between GS/USA and Scouts BSA have been mostly the inspiration of adults dickering over centuries. There's no reason that girl that young would see any difference. Regardless of the uniform, she's surrounded by caring adults. We have to take care to not treat things like her preference of uniform as some form of rejection.

[SiouxRanger]

So, time and again, I remind folks, "So we've found another jerk/slug/etc."  The world is full of them.  Just move on.  It is very aggravating that some folks abuse the process, perhaps feign ignorance of the significance of their actions, or are just plain stupid. Our troop had a senior adult leader who'd attend the fundraising dinner, bring his 3 parents/inlaws, he and his wife and 5 kids and pay $24 for a family ticket. (10 folks eating for $24). Seriously? Yep. 

Absolutely no sense that his in-laws were not really the intended beneficiaries of the "family ticket" concept. Same guy would submit for reimbursement the 10 stamps he purchased to send troop snail mail.  So, $5.00.  (And so how I wish my monthly time commitment per month were less than $5,000-seriously. And for any mid or top level executives, 20 hours a month is far larger than $5,000.) And so we just bear up, and move on. Such folks can be moved to unit minimalist responsibility positions.  On the other hand, a frank discussion with the "offending" adult, might trigger a favorable response.  "Ya'know, Tom, we do fund the Blue & Gold with pack dues, and your family hasn't paid any Pack dues since…" (Well, the last glaciation episode about 14,000 years ago…) There are gentle ways to make a point.

[qwazse]

6 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

So, time and again, I remind folks, "So we've found another jerk/slug/etc."  The world is full of them.  …

The really good news is, if you do this long enough, you also meet people who will throw down a couple of Ben Franklins for no particular reason other than to help out your scouts. Keep those folks on your mind, and forget about finding salt for the slugs.

[InquisitiveScouter]

8 minutes ago, qwazse said:

forget about finding salt for the slugs

Love this... I'm gonna use it. 

May I have permission to do so without citing the source or paying royalties? 😝

[SiouxRanger]

43 minutes ago, qwazse said:

The really good news is, if you do this long enough, you also meet people who will throw down a couple of Ben Franklins for no particular reason other than to help out your scouts. Keep those folks on your mind, and forget about finding salt for the slugs.

And there are those folks, also.  And we thank them. Even a mere $100 covers the shortfall of a campout or two.