Cub Scout Single Night Camping Only

[DannyG]

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

Cub Camping is one night because of the huge file national has on how many injuries there are on the 2nd night.

The majority of our Cub Scouts skip the first night and campout on the 2nd night. If they get hurt on the Pack's 2nd night, does it go into the 2nd night column or 1st, since it's their official first night?

[InquisitiveScouter]

36 minutes ago, PACAN said:

@InquisitiveScouter   I forgot my 😉 emoji on my first statement.

LOL, thanks!  I HUGELY appreciate sarcasm 😜 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-surprising-benefits-of-sarcasm/

Edited March 8, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[5thGenTexan]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Yes, well, you have to dig into that a little more... "bouldering" as you may know it is not the same as "bouldering" as the BSA defines it...

(Kind of like the word "overnight" 😛 )

Most people outside of BSA know bouldering as this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouldering

But BSA imposes some pretty stringent restrictions on the activity.  (No more than 6', or no more than shoulder height, without belay, depending on where you are reading.  Again, unclear guidance... imagine that.)

https://www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/cope/climb-on-safely/

In one place, this restriction applies: "Everyone must be belayed or tethered when within 8 feet of an edge where a fall of more than 6 feet could occur."

In another ( https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/pdf/430-500_BelayOn_WB.pdf , this one:  ".Other walls are horizontal rather than vertical, providing climbers with opportunities to practice traverses and bouldering moves while ascending no more than six feet above the ground."

In another: "The key to safe bouldering is for climbers to keep their feet fairly close to the ground, never ascending higher than their shoulder height above the ground."

In another: "Anyone engaged in bouldering must be protected by spotters. In addition to spotters, mats or pads should be placed at the base of indoor climbing walls to protect boulderers. Instructors and participants who climb higher than shoulder height above the ground must have a belay to protect them in case they fall."

So, if you apply the most restrictive guidance, no one (from Lions to adults) can go over their own shoulder height without belay.

The least restrictive guidance is no higher than 6 feet without belay.

And tree climbing is prohibited. (LOL)

"Extreme or action sports and associated activities that involve an unusually high degree of risk and often involve speed, height, a high level of exertion, and specialized gear or equipment. These activities include but are not limited to:

Tree climbing"

Q. Why can’t we climb trees?

A. Falls are a leading cause of injury to members of our Scouting family and one of the top five claims against the general liability insurance program. Technical tree-climbing has been prohibited for more than a decade, due primarily to not being able to safely belay participants. Tree climbing has no belay; thus, it is prohibited. This is mainly a clarification rather than a new prohibition.

Can you imagine being a kid and being told you cannot climb a tree? 

https://www.fatherly.com/entertainment/how-to-climb-tree-kids-instructions-stay-safe

BTW... I let Scouts climb trees if their parent is present, they give permission, and I have another adult witness.  I also tell the parent that BSA prohibits the activity, I do not assume any responsibility or risk, and that insurance will not cover a fall.  They assume the risk. 😜

 

What is Assumption of Risk?

The doctrine of assumption of risk is an affirmative defense that may be available to some defendants in personal injury lawsuits. The law has determined that certain activities come with an innate risk, and plaintiffs who voluntarily participate in these activities and become injured as a result cannot sue based on a negligence theory. In other words, the defense holds that people who choose to do certain dangerous activities can't turn around and hold others liable when they're injured as a result of those activities, especially if they knew of the risk of harm and assumed the risk by doing the activity anyway.

In order for a defendant to invoke the assumption of the risk defense, the plaintiff must have:

• Known that there was a risk of the same sort of injury that the plaintiff actually suffered, and
• Voluntarily took on that danger (assumed the risk) in participating in the activity.

Assumption of risk can either be an express assumption of risk or an implied assumption of risk. An express assumption of risk is often made in writing, usually in the form of a written agreement such as a signed waiver or contract. However, an express assumption of the risk doesn't have to be in writing, as it can also be made verbally.

An implied assumption of risk, on the other hand, is not written or stated out loud. Rather, a plaintiff acted in a way that reflected an understanding of the risk and a willingness to take part anyway. An example of an implied assumption of the risk is if an amusement park patron stood and watched a roller coaster for several minutes before deciding to go on the ride. The patron's observation of the roller coaster suggests an understanding of the inherent risks and a decision to assume those risks by participating in the recreational activity.

We were in camp sometime last year, or maybe the year before.  I was doing something in the "kitchen" of the GT and looked over and there were Scouts from the BT 30 feet up in a tree and passing up chairs to sit in.  Leaders werent watching them and I just knew someone was gonna die that day.

[Mrjeff]

9 hours ago, cmd said:

What is "little guy stuff"? The crafts that people always complain about when they say how awful cub scouts is and that everyone should just skip over it and wait until they can start real scouts? 

Our area has a youth activities fair at the school open house and we're able to have a recruiting b table there.  I see a LOT of disdain there from former cub scouts who don't see the point of signing up for their kid to sit in a church basement and do crafts.  If they stick around long enough for us explain that we DO camp and have campfires and hike then sometimes we get a really great leader out of them.  

I personally wouldn't have even considered paying $100+ for a cub scout experience that didn't include me finally having other families to go camping with. 

The Little Guy Stuff refers to the children who are just too young to be Boy Scouts.  Here's how I need it, a little guy joins Cub Scouts and is part of an inactive pack or den.  Thats clearly the fault of the leader and in a couple of months they quit and never make it to Boy Scouts or Venturing.  That's it, done, finished.  Or perhaps they are part of the best Pack or Den in the world.  They learn to camp, use a map and compass, even build a fire and cook.  Great, after a few years of that they move into a Troop and stick around for a couple of years and get board with the Scout stuff and quit. Thats it, done, finished.  This is my experience and is not some theory that I came up with while sitting around a campfire.  If cub scout activities are horrible I would suggest making those activities better.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

On 3/8/2023 at 9:40 AM, cmd said:

And I've got writing a cub-level (or just "beginner" for any age) orienteering lesson to offer our camp on my list of things to do as soon as I finish my Woodbadge ticket. 

A bit off topic at this point, but I would love to beta test that orienteering lesson with my wolf-soon-to-be-bear den. We just did Finding Your Way and they loved it, so I see an opportunity to feed that beast with orienteering. I'm not an expert myself, just loved orienteering in gym class, so would love a plan to execute... Plus an excuse to go trail running 😇

[InquisitiveScouter]

46 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

A bit off topic at this point, but I would love to beta test that orienteering lesson with my wolf-soon-to-be-bear den. We just did Finding Your Way and they loved it, so I see an opportunity to feed that beast with orienteering. I'm not an expert myself, just loved orienteering in gym class, so would love a plan to execute... Plus an excuse to go trail running 😇

Have you looked at geocaching??  Younger Scouts tend to love this exercise!  I always bring a map and compass, and have Scouts show me where we are on a map while geocaching.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

I thought about it, but I'm old-school and want to keep all electronics at home. We go out into nature to commune with nature and each other, not to fiddle with devices. Plus, GPS is to map and compass as a TI-83 is to doing it by hand. I think you should know it the hard way before you take the shortcut, at least if you can make it fun enough when it's not school. Given how much fun they had with the map and compass, I see a yes there, at least for these particular kids.

I was thinking about essentially converting the geocaches into an unconventional orienteering exercise by marking the coordinates on a map, though ☺️

[5thGenTexan]

22 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I thought about it, but I'm old-school and want to keep all electronics at home. We go out into nature to commune with nature and each other, not to fiddle with devices. Plus, GPS is to map and compass as a TI-83 is to doing it by hand. I think you should know it the hard way before you take the shortcut, at least if you can make it fun enough when it's not school. Given how much fun they had with the map and compass, I see a yes there, at least for these particular kids.

I was thinking about essentially converting the geocaches into an unconventional orienteering exercise by marking the coordinates on a map, though ☺️

There are requirements that specifically state a GPS is to be used.  The Geocaching MB specifically states that GPS is to be used.  You can't change or alter the requirements.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

I haven't seen any mention of GPS in either the wolf or bear adventures - did I perhaps miss it? Or can cub scouts perhaps earn merit badges? I thought you had to be in Scouts BSA for that. I'm not intending this to be for an award or an adventure, though, just think I see an opportunity to practice core scouting skills while having fun.

[HashTagScouts]

20 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I haven't seen any mention of GPS in either the wolf or bear adventures - did I perhaps miss it? Or can cub scouts perhaps earn merit badges? I thought you had to be in Scouts BSA for that. I'm not intending this to be for an award or an adventure, though, just think I see an opportunity to practice core scouting skills while having fun.

Cubs do not earn merit badges. There are Scouts BSA rank requirements for Second Class and First Class that require map and compass skills, and there is a rank requirement for First Class that requires GPS navigation skill. Good to get them some awareness of map and compass, but it wouldn't hurt to expose them to GPS as well.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

Good to know, thanks!

[Mrjeff]

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  Whats wrong with focusing on the activities prescribed for that age and let them grow into the activities for Boy Scouts?

[malraux]

If we are talking about geocaching/gps activities as too young for cub scouts, I’ll point out that baloo training spends a good chunk of time on gps/geocaching training: about equivalent to knots or first aid. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  Whats wrong with focusing on the activities prescribed for that age and let them grow into the activities for Boy Scouts?

Um, I think that was a simple mistake... take a breath and step back from the ledge....

But, nothing wrong with introducing a geocaching activity to Cub Scouts... the Den Leader puts in the coordinates and helps the Cubs find the treasure.

If you wanna make it into a map game, then have at it.

But, for Cub Scouts, hunting the treasure is fun.  Roaming through the park to find the treasure is fun.  Finding the treasure box is fun. Looking at the goodies in the box and picking one is fun.

You are just creating interest in the activity.  Tell them that, in Scouts, they will learn to use the device and put in coordinates and find the treasure on their own.

I do think @5thGenTexan may have been confused for a moment, and not realized we were talking about Cubs versus Scouts when he mentioned the MB...  let's give him a chance to clarify before we duck him at the yardarm...

 

[5thGenTexan]

55 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Um, I think that was a simple mistake... take a breath and step back from the ledge....

But, nothing wrong with introducing a geocaching activity to Cub Scouts... the Den Leader puts in the coordinates and helps the Cubs find the treasure.

If you wanna make it into a map game, then have at it.

But, for Cub Scouts, hunting the treasure is fun.  Roaming through the park to find the treasure is fun.  Finding the treasure box is fun. Looking at the goodies in the box and picking one is fun.

You are just creating interest in the activity.  Tell them that, in Scouts, they will learn to use the device and put in coordinates and find the treasure on their own.

I do think @5thGenTexan may have been confused for a moment, and not realized we were talking about Cubs versus Scouts when he mentioned the MB...  let's give him a chance to clarify before we duck him at the yardarm...

 

Yeah.  I just saw this part and the CC in me went directly to you can't alter requirements.  Sorry it was taken out of context.  

 

Quote

I thought about it, but I'm old-school and want to keep all electronics at home. We go out into nature to commune with nature and each other, not to fiddle with devices. Plus, GPS is to map and compass as a TI-83 is to doing it by hand. I think you should know it the hard way before you take the shortcut,