Cub Scout Single Night Camping Only

[MikeS72]

8 hours ago, sierracharliescouter said:

Well, I'm still not clear if I need permission to deviate from GTSS, because I still don't know if it is a "guide" or absolute, never to be broken, rules. Given that I have to break some of GTSS just to have scouts actually complete their advancement requirements, I'm stuck in Scout-rules purgatory.

Curious as to what part of the GTSS you have to break just to have your scouts complete their advancement requirements.

 

[KublaiKen]

@Mrjeff, the AoL Den is what used to be called Webelos II. BSA rightly recognized that every other Den was named for the rank they were working on achieving, and changed Webelos II (or 2?) to Arrow of Light accordingly.

Edited March 8, 2023 by KublaiKen
Turned garbled text into English.

[cmd]

10 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

My whole point is that the little guyes should do little guy stuff and when they to become a Boy Scout they get to do Boy Scout stuff.

What is "little guy stuff"? The crafts that people always complain about when they say how awful cub scouts is and that everyone should just skip over it and wait until they can start real scouts? 

Our area has a youth activities fair at the school open house and we're able to have a recruiting b table there.  I see a LOT of disdain there from former cub scouts who don't see the point of signing up for their kid to sit in a church basement and do crafts.  If they stick around long enough for us explain that we DO camp and have campfires and hike then sometimes we get a really great leader out of them.  

I personally wouldn't have even considered paying $100+ for a cub scout experience that didn't include me finally having other families to go camping with. 

[sierracharliescouter]

4 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

Curious as to what part of the GTSS you have to break just to have your scouts complete their advancement requirements.

 

Bears using hand saws.

And someone explain why Lions and Tigers are shown as "map only" when it comes to map and compass. Is there some conspiracy I haven't heard of that makes using a compass dangerous?

Also, poor relativistic risk assessment, such as Lions and Tigers allowed to do bouldering, but not other activities with similar or higher risk factors.

[InquisitiveScouter]

27 minutes ago, sierracharliescouter said:

Also, poor relativistic risk assessment, such as Lions and Tigers allowed to do bouldering, but not other activities with similar or higher risk factors.

Yes, well, you have to dig into that a little more... "bouldering" as you may know it is not the same as "bouldering" as the BSA defines it...

(Kind of like the word "overnight" 😛 )

Most people outside of BSA know bouldering as this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouldering

But BSA imposes some pretty stringent restrictions on the activity.  (No more than 6', or no more than shoulder height, without belay, depending on where you are reading.  Again, unclear guidance... imagine that.)

https://www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/cope/climb-on-safely/

In one place, this restriction applies: "Everyone must be belayed or tethered when within 8 feet of an edge where a fall of more than 6 feet could occur."

In another ( https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/pdf/430-500_BelayOn_WB.pdf , this one:  ".Other walls are horizontal rather than vertical, providing climbers with opportunities to practice traverses and bouldering moves while ascending no more than six feet above the ground."

In another: "The key to safe bouldering is for climbers to keep their feet fairly close to the ground, never ascending higher than their shoulder height above the ground."

In another: "Anyone engaged in bouldering must be protected by spotters. In addition to spotters, mats or pads should be placed at the base of indoor climbing walls to protect boulderers. Instructors and participants who climb higher than shoulder height above the ground must have a belay to protect them in case they fall."

So, if you apply the most restrictive guidance, no one (from Lions to adults) can go over their own shoulder height without belay.

The least restrictive guidance is no higher than 6 feet without belay.

And tree climbing is prohibited. (LOL)

"Extreme or action sports and associated activities that involve an unusually high degree of risk and often involve speed, height, a high level of exertion, and specialized gear or equipment. These activities include but are not limited to:

Tree climbing"

Q. Why can’t we climb trees?

A. Falls are a leading cause of injury to members of our Scouting family and one of the top five claims against the general liability insurance program. Technical tree-climbing has been prohibited for more than a decade, due primarily to not being able to safely belay participants. Tree climbing has no belay; thus, it is prohibited. This is mainly a clarification rather than a new prohibition.

Can you imagine being a kid and being told you cannot climb a tree? 

https://www.fatherly.com/entertainment/how-to-climb-tree-kids-instructions-stay-safe

BTW... I let Scouts climb trees if their parent is present, they give permission, and I have another adult witness.  I also tell the parent that BSA prohibits the activity, I do not assume any responsibility or risk, and that insurance will not cover a fall.  They assume the risk. 😜

 

What is Assumption of Risk?

The doctrine of assumption of risk is an affirmative defense that may be available to some defendants in personal injury lawsuits. The law has determined that certain activities come with an innate risk, and plaintiffs who voluntarily participate in these activities and become injured as a result cannot sue based on a negligence theory. In other words, the defense holds that people who choose to do certain dangerous activities can't turn around and hold others liable when they're injured as a result of those activities, especially if they knew of the risk of harm and assumed the risk by doing the activity anyway.

In order for a defendant to invoke the assumption of the risk defense, the plaintiff must have:

• Known that there was a risk of the same sort of injury that the plaintiff actually suffered, and
• Voluntarily took on that danger (assumed the risk) in participating in the activity.

Assumption of risk can either be an express assumption of risk or an implied assumption of risk. An express assumption of risk is often made in writing, usually in the form of a written agreement such as a signed waiver or contract. However, an express assumption of the risk doesn't have to be in writing, as it can also be made verbally.

An implied assumption of risk, on the other hand, is not written or stated out loud. Rather, a plaintiff acted in a way that reflected an understanding of the risk and a willingness to take part anyway. An example of an implied assumption of the risk is if an amusement park patron stood and watched a roller coaster for several minutes before deciding to go on the ride. The patron's observation of the roller coaster suggests an understanding of the inherent risks and a decision to assume those risks by participating in the recreational activity.

Edited March 8, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[cmd]

7 minutes ago, sierracharliescouter said:

Bears using hand saws.

And someone explain why Lions and Tigers are shown as "map only" when it comes to map and compass. Is there some conspiracy I haven't heard of that makes using a compass dangerous?

Also, poor relativistic risk assessment, such as Lions and Tigers allowed to do bouldering, but not other activities with similar or higher risk factors.

I think the map only piece is an excellent GUIDELINE. Our local camp has a permanent orienteering course and they have camp rangers available to teach kids how to use map and compass to find the controls. Cubs are welcome, but it's the same explanation whether you're in 1st grade or 10th.  Explaining how a topo map works and maybe using a compass to orient the map if there aren't clear enough landmarks to go by, then trying to follow the map alone would have been far more age-appropriate.  That said, as a member of the local orienteering club, I would argue that it's also how you should start out with the 10th grader, too, and not introduce sighting and finer details of compass work until they could read the map easily. In our area, it's actually pretty rare to need more than a properly oriented map. If that's the kind of course your scouts are on, it's going to seem like an especially useless skill.  I'd been orienteering several years before finally doing a 6 hour meet in an area with no trails and lots of impassable areas and it finally made sense to me why someone would need it! 

One could argue that not teaching them to use a compass is a safety issue because having one discourages you from really reading the map closely, and that's the more important survival, but it's a real stretch.  I think it's really one of those "overwhelming little kids is bad for retention" arguments - when underwhelming them is twice as bad. 

Or it might be a "save stuff for them to learn at the troop level" but orienteering was the lesson used to teach the EDGE method in my IOLS class and they were doing it completely wrong while stressing the importance of not stepping in and correcting the youth unless it was a safety issue.  I asked how the next kids were supposed to teach it correctly if they'd been taught wrong and the answer was that hopefully before teaching it they'd get a book out to refresh themselves and notice the error. WHAT?? I'd rather my child not be taught wrong things in the first place.  You know what's going to kill a youth's self-esteem and perceived value of scouting even faster than having an adult gently correct a youth instructor who misspoke? Having a scout go home excited and try to share his new knowledge and have someone not-so-gently tell him he's wrong. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 minutes ago, cmd said:

I think the map only piece is an excellent GUIDELINE. Our local camp has a permanent orienteering course and they have camp rangers available to teach kids how to use map and compass to find the controls. Cubs are welcome, but it's the same explanation whether you're in 1st grade or 10th.  Explaining how a topo map works and maybe using a compass to orient the map if there aren't clear enough landmarks to go by, then trying to follow the map alone would have been far more age-appropriate.  That said, as a member of the local orienteering club, I would argue that it's also how you should start out with the 10th grader, too, and not introduce sighting and finer details of compass work until they could read the map easily. In our area, it's actually pretty rare to need more than a properly oriented map. If that's the kind of course your scouts are on, it's going to seem like an especially useless skill.  I'd been orienteering several years before finally doing a 6 hour meet in an area with no trails and lots of impassable areas and it finally made sense to me why someone would need it! 

One could argue that not teaching them to use a compass is a safety issue because having one discourages you from really reading the map closely, and that's the more important survival, but it's a real stretch.  I think it's really one of those "overwhelming little kids is bad for retention" arguments - when underwhelming them is twice as bad. 

Or it might be a "save stuff for them to learn at the troop level" but orienteering was the lesson used to teach the EDGE method in my IOLS class and they were doing it completely wrong while stressing the importance of not stepping in and correcting the youth unless it was a safety issue.  I asked how the next kids were supposed to teach it correctly if they'd been taught wrong and the answer was that hopefully before teaching it they'd get a book out to refresh themselves and notice the error. WHAT?? I'd rather my child not be taught wrong things in the first place.  You know what's going to kill a youth's self-esteem and perceived value of scouting even faster than having an adult gently correct a youth instructor who misspoke? Having a scout go home excited and try to share his new knowledge and have someone not-so-gently tell him he's wrong. 

I teach map and compass skills, and an Orienteering MB counselor, among other things.  @cmd gives perfect advice...

The most important skill to have in navigation is map reading.  Most beginner or intermediate orienteering courses can be done with map reading only.

I use a compass most frequently to tell me one thing --- Which way is magnetic north?  And I need to know that to orient my map.

It does blow their mind when they put this together:  Every day at noon (for those of us who live in the northern hemisphere above the tropical line), your shadow points true north.  Use that to orient your map.

[cmd]

17 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

BTW... I let Scouts climb trees if their parent is present, they give permission, and I have another adult witness.  I also tell the parent that BSA prohibits the activity, I do not assume any responsibility or risk, and that insurance will not cover a fall.  They assume the risk. 😜

This reminds me of a hike we (family) went on in Hawaii. We had a printed guidebook that told us where it was and to ignore the no trespassing signs and just climb over the fence.  Sounded sketchy, but you could see that the grass was well-traveled, so we did it.  Followed the path around the bend and as soon as we were out of sight of the road, there was a clear sign saying "waterfall 3 miles" and showing us the way to go.   After going to the waterfall and back, I understood why they'd try to avoid liability for hikers, though.  Had to cross a stream that was a trickle on the way there and waist-deep on the way back.

[cmd]

35 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I teach map and compass skills, and an Orienteering MB counselor, among other things.  @cmd gives perfect advice...

Mind if I private message you for some tips?  My husband has been asked to become an Orienteering MB counselor and is totally new to any MBC role or even observing how such a thing works.  And I've got writing a cub-level (or just "beginner" for any age) orienteering lesson to offer our camp on my list of things to do as soon as I finish my Woodbadge ticket.  Why did all the ideas of things I really want to fix come to me AFTER I filled out that ticket paperwork?  

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, cmd said:

Mind if I private message you for some tips?  My husband has been asked to become an Orienteering MB counselor and is totally new to any MBC role or even observing how such a thing works.  And I've got writing a cub-level (or just "beginner" for any age) orienteering lesson to offer our camp on my list of things to do as soon as I finish my Woodbadge ticket.  Why did all the ideas of things I really want to fix come to me AFTER I filled out that ticket paperwork?  

Sure thing! 

[PACAN]

Cub Camping is one night because of the huge file national has on how many injuries there are on the 2nd night.

 

The issue here is how many council sponsored camping events do councils actually do and provide resources for so 2 nights can be had?    Let's all not laugh too hard.

 

My council friend says his council camp won't even book one night events.

 

JMHO.

[InquisitiveScouter]

35 minutes ago, PACAN said:

Cub Camping is one night because of the huge file national has on how many injuries there are on the 2nd night.

And how much bigger is that file than the one where the injuries occurred on the first night?

Correlation is not a cause.

[DannyG]

On 3/6/2023 at 10:41 PM, DannyG said:

I have been with the same Cub Pack for 6 years. It was always a 2-night camping trip, Friday and Saturday (with options of spending one night or the other; or coming only for the day program). 2-night prohibition seems arbitrary.

If I can elaborate: About 80% of the cub scouts on our camping trips stay one night; or only come for the day program anyway. It is essentially the Cubmaster, Den Leaders, and other adults setting up camp and the day program who campout on Friday night, and their families. Most of the families stay Saturday night after campfire. Some will opt for Friday night instead because of sports or rehearsals, etc. It helps us to have 2-night options because our cub scouts are in other programs like sports, dancing, karate, etc. It seems arbitrary to have BSA take options away from us.

Edited March 8, 2023 by DannyG

[PACAN]

@InquisitiveScouter   I forgot my 😉 emoji on my first statement.

[Mrjeff]

Ok, gotcha, thanks.