Cub Scout Single Night Camping Only

[malraux]

7 minutes ago, nolesrule said:

The GTSS clearly states that Webelos and AOL dens can conduct den coordinated campouts (see the screen grab a few posts up). The single overnight experience limitation specifically applies to pack coordinated overnights. Something cannot be both pack coordinated and den coordinated. It's either one or the other. The wording for pack coordinated and den coordinated is in the same sub-section of the GTSS, so I would find it hard to believe the wording in this section is not intentional to allow Webelos and AOL dens to camp for more than one night.

But because the g2ss says that "All Cub Scout camping requirements still apply, including the den must have a BALOO trained adult leader in attendance and all Youth Protection policies apply." The single night limitation is part of the Cub Scout camping requirements, it would seem to me.

[InquisitiveScouter]

Thank you guys for having this discussion.  I hope @RichardB sees this and concludes we have another confusing policy in place that needs clarification, if National actually wishes thoughtful leaders to follow it.

[nolesrule]

32 minutes ago, malraux said:

But because the g2ss says that "All Cub Scout camping requirements still apply, including the den must have a BALOO trained adult leader in attendance and all Youth Protection policies apply." The single night limitation is part of the Cub Scout camping requirements, it would seem to me.

Yes, but....

The cub scout requirement for single overnight experiences has the caveat that it is a pack coordinated overnight. None of the other pack-level requirements have that phrase. Therefore it puts an extra condition on when single night experience restrictions apply.

They could have chosen to leave out pack-coordinated to give it broader applicability to cub camping. I postulate that the specific use of "pack coordinated" and "den coordinated" is intentional as to allow Webelos/AOL dens to continue 2-night overnight trips with troops, while restricting pack-level overnights to a single night.

I sincerely doubt the lawyers missed this one.

Edited March 6, 2023 by nolesrule

[Eagle94-A1]

44 minutes ago, nolesrule said:

 The prohibition on camporee overnight attendance means a Webelos or AOL den cannot camp with a troop at a camporee. I don't know what makes a camporee inherently more risky or what other reasoning they are using. One would have to ask national.

The prohibition has been around on and off since before i was a Cub Scout, I remember riding 3 hours round trip to visit a camporee, and upset because I could not stay over. I actually spent more time on the road.

One way I have seen councils get around the prohibition is to have an all ages event where Cubs, Scouts, Sea Scouts, Explorers, and Venturers attend. In one council, it is mostly Cub Scout events, but has enough Scout+ events to attract troop, ship, post, and crew interest. Another council had their Cub Family Campout and Camporee the same weekend at the same location. There was a designated area for Cubs, Designated area for Scouts, and a common area where both were allowed.

Now for a brief period of time circa 2012 to circa 2021, the prohibition on Webelos camping at camporee was NOT in effect, and I know at least one council  pushed Webelos to attend camporees. I know  when i was running camporee, we had one event specifically for Webelos, and they could do all of the events the Scouts did. Everyone on staff was on board with showing the Webelos how to do things they did not know, and letting htem try themselves.

BEST. RECRUITING.TOOL. EVER!

 

What I do not understand is if a council run event is safer than a unit organized one and can run 2 + nights, why would a camporee not be safe for overnight camping?

[KublaiKen]

Just to make sure I understand how to keep kids safe: BSA maintains that it is safe to camp two nights in groups smaller than a Pack (i.e., a Den), and larger than the Pack (e.g., a Council camp), but at the exact size* of a Pack a second night presents an inherent level of danger so great that it cannot be mitigated and such events must be banned. And to be clear, camping is allowed in all of these individual circumstances, but the second night is the huge risk, the safety violation. Is this right?

* - How big is a Pack?

[InquisitiveScouter]

Here's a video explaining how to apply the Cub Scout camping rules from G2SS...

https://youtu.be/pXw7LYWNi5E

 

[sierracharliescouter]

2 hours ago, nolesrule said:

I sincerely doubt the lawyers missed this one.

Three problems with this statement:

1) Never make an definitive assumption that the lawyer got it right.

2) I don't know who BSA is using for their lawyers, but it is always good to keep in mind that the person who graduated last in their class at law school and finally passed the bar exam on their 5th attempt is still allowed to call themselves a "lawyer".

3) Being a BSA volunteer shouldn't require a legal background to understand the rules.

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

Just to make sure I understand how to keep kids safe: BSA maintains that it is safe to camp two nights in groups smaller than a Pack (i.e., a Den), and larger than the Pack (e.g., a Council camp), but at the exact size* of a Pack a second night presents an inherent level of danger so great that it cannot be mitigated and such events must be banned. And to be clear, camping is allowed in all of these individual circumstances, but the second night is the huge risk, the safety violation. Is this right?

* - How big is a Pack?

Actually if you look up Webelos Overnighter in the Language of Scouting webpage, they changed it last week to say"  1 night." Prior to that, it was "one or two nights."

Welcome to 1984.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Eagle94-A1

[KublaiKen]

1 minute ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Actually if you look up Webelos Overnighter in the Language of Scouting webpage, they changed to last week to say 1 night. Prior to that, it was one or two nights.

Welcome to 1984.

More gaslighting.

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Actually if you look up Webelos Overnighter in the Language of Scouting webpage, they changed to last week to say 1 night. Prior to that, it was one or two nights.

Welcome to 1984.

Current page (06 Mar 2023):

https://www.scouting.org/resources/los/#

ENTRY:  overnighter   A Cub Scout Pack organized one night campout held at a Council designated location. Also see “Webelos Scout overnighter.”

ENTRY: Webelos Scout overnighter   A one night campout by Webelos Scouts and their parent or guardian.

 

Cached on 23 Feb 2023

http://web.archive.org/web/20230221012845/https://www.scouting.org/resources/los/

ENTRY:  overnighter  See “Webelos Scout overnighter.”

ENTRY:  Webelos Scout overnighter  A one- or two-night campout by Webelos Scouts and their parent or guardian.

 

Yes, Orwellian @Eagle94-A1

 

First site capture I can find: 05 Jun 2019

http://web.archive.org/web/20190605234607/https://www.scouting.org/resources/los/

NO ENTRY for "Overnighter"

ENTRY: Webelos Scout overnighter  A one- or two-night campout by Webelos Scouts and their parent or guardian.

 

There are 86 captures on the site from 05 Jun 2019 to today.  You can view them and see where the changes occurred yourself.

http://web.archive.org/web/20190601000000*/https://www.scouting.org/resources/los/

30 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

More gaslighting.

By @Eagle94-A1?? or by BSA??

[InquisitiveScouter]

Funny that this thread starts on 21 Feb 2023, and the definitions on line were changed after 23 Feb.

WE ARE HAVING AN EFFECT!!!

Edited March 6, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[HashTagScouts]

FWIW- I'll at least give credit that they are actually putting clarifications into the actual source that folks should follow. We asked questions to our Council to clarify the transportation policy update in 2017, and were pointed to a Bryan Wendell article that contained responses from Richard Bourlon, the BSA Health and Safety team lead, and told that was the guidance National indicated we should follow. Never saw the items we asked about ever get into the GTSS (and still isn't).

[KublaiKen]

Oh, the gaslighting is by BSA. It is weird how an organization that promotes honesty uses this level of deceit and disingenuous practice. In this very thread we have now seen a rule change, not a clarificarion, while being told it has always been this way.

[seattlecyclone]

5 hours ago, cmd said:

This piece makes sense to me.  Webelos can camp with a Troop, just not at a camporee with potentially a thousand unknown people.

Okay, but...the part where you're interacting with the thousand unknown people is the daytime part, the part that the Webelos are allowed to attend! For the actual sleeping part everyone retreats to their troop campsites. I fail to see how sleeping in a tent with a troop in a campsite near other troops is any riskier than sleeping in a tent with a troop in a public campground near non-BSA campers.

[Eagle94-A1]

22 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

 It is weird how an organization that promotes honesty uses this level of deceit and disingenuous practice. In this very thread we have now seen a rule change, not a clarificarion, while being told it has always been this way.

Don't worry, I am still waiting for the FAQ on Dodgeball to be changed. Before they took it down off their website,  I pointed out how Dodgeball, and several varients, were approved games by BSA, and gave them the link. They took down the link, but never changed the FAQ.

Thankfully print copies showing they are lying about Dodgeball exist.