Cub Scout Single Night Camping Only

[KublaiKen]

And to give an idea of how bad at this BSA is, or at least how dysfunctional the relationship between National and Councils is, read that C10 memo again:

1. C10 did not have the heads up this was coming so they could already have that product developed and on the shelf waiting, which would have benefited both the Scouts they serve and their own bottom line.
2. Like us, and contrary to what he have been told, C10 had no idea what any of this meant and also believes this policy to be new. Read their language (emphasis added):

• The Circle Ten Council has been reviewing this new information and seeking clarification.
• Through our investigation, we have determined that a “short-term camp”...

 

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

And to give an idea of how bad at this BSA is, or at least how dysfunctional the relationship between National and Councils is, read that C10 memo again:

1. C10 did not have the heads up this was coming so they could already have that product developed and on the shelf waiting, which would have benefited both the Scouts they serve and their own bottom line.
2. Like us, and contrary to what he have been told, C10 had no idea what any of this meant and also believes this policy to be new. Read their language (emphasis added):

• The Circle Ten Council has been reviewing this new information and seeking clarification.
• Through our investigation, we have determined that a “short-term camp”...

 

 

But, wait!  Wasn't all this asked and answered for them back in 2019 via Appendix MM in the 204 page BALOO instructor syallbus buried in the bowels of BSA's website servers?

LOL

You just cannot make this stuff up.

[KublaiKen]

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

But, wait!  Wasn't all this asked and answered for them back in 2019 via Appendix MM in the 204 page BALOO instructor syallbus buried in the bowels of BSA's website servers?

LOL

You just cannot make this stuff up.

Right? Now we find that a Council serving nearly 60,000 youth has not understood (and therefore has not been training or enforcing) an element of the GSS for the past four years. Any bets on whether they are alone, since none of us knew it either?

[5thGenTexan]

What's more.  Circle 10 is just down the road from National BSA.... this could have been communicated like over lunch meeting up half way between

[KublaiKen]

I understand that organizations change their rules.

I understand that organizations clarify their rules in ways that seem like changes to those who didn't understand the original intent.

I will never understand why BSA systemically gaslights its members and volunteers by pretending a rule was always the way it was. This is an example, as is pretending AOL was always a rank and not an award presented for going above and beyond during Webelos.

[SiouxRanger]

On 2/27/2023 at 7:17 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

All that background stuff printed on the adult application is information provided for the CO to vet (and make a decision whether to accept or deny) the person.

See the blurb above the CO signature block.  "APPROVALS FOR UNIT ADULTS: I have reviewed this application and the responses to any questions answered “Yes,” and have made any follow-up inquiries necessary to be satisfied that the applicant possesses the moral, educational, and emotional qualities to be an adult leader in the BSA."

Your CO and unit should really be exercising "due diligence" in vetting people. 

When I see the word “vet” I think of a process, “vetting.”  Such as a checklist of sources to consult, documents to gather (where would a mere COR obtain pertinent records?), a review the application and other pertinent records, questions to ask, perhaps other unit leaders to be consulted if issues arise.  Then, make a record, for the applicant’s file, so as to be able to document the steps taken and the care shown in making the decision to accept an applicant as a unit leader, or at least as a registered adult. And if an adverse decision is made, is the applicant entitled to a hearing of some sort?

 Then, being in the nature of a personnel file, they need to be secured, and under “eyes only” access.  And when the COR moves on, the files need to be transitioned their successor. How long are the files to be kept?  In some states with lenient statutes of limitation, perhaps decades.

 I have never heard word one from any scouters in my decades of being involved in scouting at many levels of a formal vetting process.  Do any units conduct a formal vetting process?  And what do they do routinely? And what do they do if an issue arises?  Consult with other unit leaders?  Seek additional information?  Meet with the applicant and discuss the issue?

 Most adult leader applicants are parents of scouts who attend our sponsoring school.  They are seen at sports events and scouting events, school activities, may serve as coaches, attend church, etc.  They may have two or three children who have followed one another into the program.  They are seen and have interacted with the COR and other unit adults anywhere from 1 to 10 years.  They are largely known by reputation.

 A few adults do fall into the class of being a parent of a first grader, their first child in school.  Little may be known about their reputation.  And if they are a recent move to the school district, there has been little chance to develop a reputation.  The council’s criminal background check is the principal vetting that is done.

 The remaining class of adult leaders are those whose children have aged out and they continue on.  Their reputations have been built over decades with the unit.  I include grandparents of scouts also in this class.

 My concern is that National, by way of the COR’s certificate on the Adult Application, attempts to push the responsibility for vetting adults onto the Chartering Organization and its COR, both having little effective way to do a proper job of it.  And as we have seen in the bankruptcy, Chartering Organizations are defending against millions of dollars of claims, and arguably, largely because of the Chartering Organizations’ responsibility for vetting adult leaders. I don’t recall a direct claim against a Chartering Organization Representative, the individual, but it is a logical extension of the principle, as the COR did sign and approve the adult’s application.

[InquisitiveScouter]

30 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

 

When I see the word “vet” I think of a process, “vetting.”  Such as a checklist of sources to consult, documents to gather (where would a mere COR obtain pertinent records?), a review the application and other pertinent records, questions to ask, perhaps other unit leaders to be consulted if issues arise.  Then, make a record, for the applicant’s file, so as to be able to document the steps taken and the care shown in making the decision to accept an applicant as a unit leader, or at least as a registered adult. And if an adverse decision is made, is the applicant entitled to a hearing of some sort?

 Then, being in the nature of a personnel file, they need to be secured, and under “eyes only” access.  And when the COR moves on, the files need to be transitioned their successor. How long are the files to be kept?  In some states with lenient statutes of limitation, perhaps decades.

 I have never heard word one from any scouters in my decades of being involved in scouting at many levels of a formal vetting process.  Do any units conduct a formal vetting process?  And what do they do routinely? And what do they do if an issue arises?  Consult with other unit leaders?  Seek additional information?  Meet with the applicant and discuss the issue?

 Most adult leader applicants are parents of scouts who attend our sponsoring school.  They are seen at sports events and scouting events, school activities, may serve as coaches, attend church, etc.  They may have two or three children who have followed one another into the program.  They are seen and have interacted with the COR and other unit adults anywhere from 1 to 10 years.  They are largely known by reputation.

 A few adults do fall into the class of being a parent of a first grader, their first child in school.  Little may be known about their reputation.  And if they are a recent move to the school district, there has been little chance to develop a reputation.  The council’s criminal background check is the principal vetting that is done.

 The remaining class of adult leaders are those whose children have aged out and they continue on.  Their reputations have been built over decades with the unit.  I include grandparents of scouts also in this class.

 My concern is that National, by way of the COR’s certificate on the Adult Application, attempts to push the responsibility for vetting adults onto the Chartering Organization and its COR, both having little effective way to do a proper job of it.  And as we have seen in the bankruptcy, Chartering Organizations are defending against millions of dollars of claims, and arguably, largely because of the Chartering Organizations’ responsibility for vetting adult leaders. I don’t recall a direct claim against a Chartering Organization Representative, the individual, but it is a logical extension of the principle, as the COR did sign and approve the adult’s application.

Our COR calls the references, and meets with the applicant to discuss the application and any flags raised in the responses.  Here in PA, you must have three background checks done to volunteer.  Having those is extremely helpful.

We keep a copy of the paperwork.

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[Eagle94-A1]

I have had 1 unit call references. I had another unit do a criminal background check on me, in addition to checking references. Kinda nice having a LEO as SM.  

The other units did not do background checks as I was a known volunteer, and in fact helped train some Scouters prior to joining the units. Or I grew up in the unit.

[InquisitiveScouter]

@RichardB, any thoughts on Circle 10 questioning and clarifying this Cub Scout camping policy?

You've gone silent on this... wink, wink, nudge, nudge

[QBearHugs]

Setting aside the question of whether or not this rule existed previously or is new for 2023, I have some questions on the current interpretation of the rule.

It says "Cub Scout pack unit coordinated camping is limited to single overnight experiences. "

Let us assume that "single overnight experiences" means each experience must be one night and not that only one experience can be planned per year.

What, exactly, constitutes "Cub Scout pack unit coordinated camping?"

1. Would a Webelos den campout be a pack unit coordinated activity because a den is part of the pack unit?
2. Would it be any event where the Pack planned out and provided the programming and/or meals?
3. Does the one-night limit apply to Webelos who are attending a troop campout because, per GSS, "Webelos/Arrow of Light Den Camping may participate and camp at a Scouts BSA troop unit campout. All Cub Scout camping requirements still apply, including the den must have a BALOO trained adult leader in attendance and all Youth Protection policies apply."
4. Is it just the family camping activities coordinated by the Pack for the whole Pack, on their own, separate from any other organization's camping program?

[MattR]

Welcome to the forum @QBearHugs.

[5thGenTexan]

3 hours ago, QBearHugs said:

Setting aside the question of whether or not this rule existed previously or is new for 2023, I have some questions on the current interpretation of the rule.

It says "Cub Scout pack unit coordinated camping is limited to single overnight experiences. "

Let us assume that "single overnight experiences" means each experience must be one night and not that only one experience can be planned per year.

What, exactly, constitutes "Cub Scout pack unit coordinated camping?"

1. Would a Webelos den campout be a pack unit coordinated activity because a den is part of the pack unit?
2. Would it be any event where the Pack planned out and provided the programming and/or meals?
3. Does the one-night limit apply to Webelos who are attending a troop campout because, per GSS, "Webelos/Arrow of Light Den Camping may participate and camp at a Scouts BSA troop unit campout. All Cub Scout camping requirements still apply, including the den must have a BALOO trained adult leader in attendance and all Youth Protection policies apply."
4. Is it just the family camping activities coordinated by the Pack for the whole Pack, on their own, separate from any other organization's camping program?

The way I understand this rule....

Unit Coordinated Camping is ANYTHING planned by the Pack.

Council Coordinated Camping is ANYTHING that Council plans and invites Unit to participate in.

As far as #3... As far as I can tell there is a conflict in the guidance.   It says that Webelos/AOL can camp with a Troop.  Then the very next bullet points says they can only attend Camporees as "Day Visitors"  So, can they camp with a Troop or not?

 

[seattlecyclone]

One question that pops out to me about that: is a Webelos/AoL den-coordinated campout considered a "pack unit coordinated campout" (and therefore subject to the one-night limit) or is it a separate thing entirely since it's just the den and not the whole pack involved?

Regarding the ability to go along with Scouts BSA activities, it seems to be saying that the Webelos/AoL dens can stay overnight at troop-coordinated campouts, but can only be day visitors at camporees. Putting these rules together it seems they're saying pack-organized campouts are more risky than council-organized campouts, which are in turn more risky than troop-organized campouts. Make sense to everyone?

[cmd]

7 hours ago, seattlecyclone said:

Regarding the ability to go along with Scouts BSA activities, it seems to be saying that the Webelos/AoL dens can stay overnight at troop-coordinated campouts, but can only be day visitors at camporees. Putting these rules together it seems they're saying pack-organized campouts are more risky than council-organized campouts, which are in turn more risky than troop-organized campouts. Make sense to everyone?

This piece makes sense to me.  Webelos can camp with a Troop, just not at a camporee with potentially a thousand unknown people.

But then, that's a council-run event, right?  Why are the council-run Scouts BSA events considered more risky, but council-run Cub events are enough safer to be the only acceptable two-night option? 

Edited March 6, 2023 by cmd

[nolesrule]

 

7 hours ago, seattlecyclone said:

One question that pops out to me about that: is a Webelos/AoL den-coordinated campout considered a "pack unit coordinated campout" (and therefore subject to the one-night limit) or is it a separate thing entirely since it's just the den and not the whole pack involved?

Regarding the ability to go along with Scouts BSA activities, it seems to be saying that the Webelos/AoL dens can stay overnight at troop-coordinated campouts, but can only be day visitors at camporees. Putting these rules together it seems they're saying pack-organized campouts are more risky than council-organized campouts, which are in turn more risky than troop-organized campouts. Make sense to everyone?

 

A camporee is a multi-unit event making it a district or larger event. A troop camping trip is a single unit event. The prohibition on camporee overnight attendance means a Webelos or AOL den cannot camp with a troop at a camporee. I don't know what makes a camporee inherently more risky or what other reasoning they are using. One would have to ask national.

The GTSS clearly states that Webelos and AOL dens can conduct den coordinated campouts (see the screen grab a few posts up). The single overnight experience limitation specifically applies to pack coordinated overnights. Something cannot be both pack coordinated and den coordinated. It's either one or the other. The wording for pack coordinated and den coordinated is in the same sub-section of the GTSS, so I would find it hard to believe the wording in this section is not intentional to allow Webelos and AOL dens to camp for more than one night.

Edited March 6, 2023 by nolesrule