Cub Scout Single Night Camping Only

[MattR]

In defense of @RichardB, there's a chart in the 2019 post that does clarify all of this, so don't shoot the messenger.

That said, we did ignore that rule because having webelos (aol now) join us for a campout with their parent was the best recruitment method we had. Going up for the day or just one night doesn't compare because the cub is not integrated as well. Other than sleeping we put him in a patrol. They loved it.

As others have said, what's that much different between one night and two?

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

On 10/10/2019 at 3:54 PM, RichardB said:

Are you referring to this chart??

It does not clarify.  The stipulation that Scouts, BSA may have "Weekend Campouts" is distinguished from the "Pack Overnighters" only in that Pack events must be at "Council-Designated Locations Only".  Throw in the Family Camping for Webelos Scouts block, and it only adds to this confusion.

Here is the official link to the chart, BTW:

 https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-686.pdf

That document has no links in G2SS pointing to it, that I can find.  (Would someone else check this, please?)

The only document I can see linked from G2SS is this one:

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf

Which, again, adds no clarity.

Back then, the other reference to this was pointed out by @malraux, which is still a valid link:

https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/activities/cub-scout-camping/

Now, that guidance DOES add clarity.  However, burying this significant restriction in only a few obscure locations is a poor practice.  Something like that ought to spelled out unequivocally in the G2SS.

 

3 minutes ago, MattR said:

In defense of @RichardB, there's a chart in the 2019 post that does clarify all of this, so don't shoot the messenger.

That said, we did ignore that rule because having webelos (aol now) join us for a campout with their parent was the best recruitment method we had. Going up for the day or just one night doesn't compare because the cub is not integrated as well. Other than sleeping we put him in a patrol. They loved it.

As others have said, what's that much different between one night and two?

 

And, he is not a "messenger." I believe this @RichardB is THE BSA Director Environmental Health and Safety,

and his LinkedIn profile describes his job as including, among other things, "Provides content and editorial leadership for Scouting Safely website and EHS Publications. Provides safety and health interpretations for standards, rules and policies and procedures. " (emphasis added)

If that is not his position, then I'll be happy to withdraw the arrow from the messenger's chest. 😛 

https://youtu.be/DgK25o__0Hw

 

[malraux]

6 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

The only document I can see linked from G2SS is this one:

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf

Which, again, adds no clarity.

As per that link, if overnight always meant a single night, then multi-day backpacking trips are against the g2ss.

[InquisitiveScouter]

Just now, malraux said:

As per that link, if overnight always meant a single night, then multi-day backpacking trips are against the g2ss.

Spot on!

[malraux]

There's a lot of BSA literature that mixes overnight and multi night events. 

Quote

Trek Safely, the Boy Scouts of America’s recommended procedure for organizing BSA outdoor treks, applies to overnight treks of any duration.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/pdf/430-125_WB.pdf
Near as I can tell, trek safely is a depreciated standard, but would have been in effect in during this decades long ruling.

 

Quote

 A short-term camp is any council-organized overnight camping program, whether one-time or continuing, that is one, two or three nights in length...

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/2023-NCAP-Standards-430-056-web.pdf
That's an NCAP definition which seems to list overnight as possibly including 3 nights camping as an overnight camping.

If longer than one night no longer counts as an overnight camping, I have no idea how to interpret the rank requirements.

Quote

Since joining Scouts BSA, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities, at least six of which must be held outdoors. Of the outdoor activities, at least three must include overnight camping.

If weekend camping isn't overnight camping then do youth not count weekend campouts for this rank requirement?

[MattR]

6 hours ago, malraux said:

As per that link, if overnight always meant a single night, then multi-day backpacking trips are against the g2ss.

I wasn't laughing at you, but that emoticon was the closest thing I could find to "touche."

 

[malraux]

12 minutes ago, MattR said:

I wasn't laughing at you, but that emoticon was the closest thing I could find to "touche."

 

Sure, I'm kinda joking, but if, as @RichardB says, overnight is a preexistingly clearly defined word that only means a single night, then he is also saying that you can't backpack multiple days. Or at least the wording should be changed to reflect this.

[PACAN]

@MattR"As others have said, what's that much different between one night and two?"     One? 😂

 

Same :   Why can't MBCs go camping with a troop and need to be a paying volunteer?    They have the same YPT and other required clearances as a paying volunteer.     Cash? 😏

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

@MattR"As others have said, what's that much different between one night and two?"     One? 😂

 

Same :   Why can't MBCs go camping with a troop and need to be a paying volunteer?    They have the same YPT and other required clearances as a paying volunteer.     Cash? 😏

The official answer is : MBCs are not vetted by your CO/COR.  Only unit registered adults (CO approved) are supposed to be camping with your unit.

That is why inter-unit events are to be cleared by the council.

Now, do you think the council really does anything for these inter-unit events, other than tacking on a fee?

And if you could get your CO to approve the MBC, you ought be good to go.  But I'd get that in writing, just to have your bases covered.

 

 

[SiouxRanger]

16 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

The official answer is : MBCs are not vetted by your CO/COR.  Only unit registered adults (CO approved) are supposed to be camping with your unit.

You may well be right, but then the issue becomes: "Not vetted by CO/COR to camp with unit, but 'vetted just enough' by Council to be an MBC."

So, seems to me that MBC's come in several varieties, in approximate descending order of "vettedness" to my way of thinking:

1.  An MBC who is also currently a unit adult leader counseling only scouts from that unit.  Currently, both CO/COR vetted by the scout's unit and Council vetted as an MBC.

2.  An MBC who is also currently a unit adult leader counseling scouts from other units.  Currently, both CO/COR vetted by the other unit and Council vetted as an MBC.

3.  An MBC affiliated with a specific unit in some fashion, perhaps a former unit leader, now serving only as a MBC for that prior unit.  Previously vetted by the Unit CO/COR, but now only vetted by the Council.  This MBC is a known quantity to the scout's unit's adult leadership.

4.  Same as #3, but this MBC is counseling scouts from units that the MBC has never been affiliated with.  This MBC has been vetted by some other CO/COR once upon a time, but not the CO/COR for the unit of the scout being counseled.  

5.  An MBC that is not affiliated with any unit in any way.  This MBC may have been previously affiliated with a unit so long ago that the connection has been lost (they are now "unknown" to any current unit leadership), or never affiliated with any unit ever.  The "vettedness" of this class of MBC relies solely on the Council's judgment. And to what depth does the Council actually conduct any inquiry?

Our unit, in my experience, has never formally "vetted" anyone.  If an issue with respect to some adult is noticed, the leadership generally discusses it and formulates a plan to address it.  No abuse related issues have ever arisen, but issues of physical or mental capacity have arisen, such as diminished driving capacity, increased likelihood of a medical event when camping remotely, and lack of situational awareness to respond to an emergency when camping.

[InquisitiveScouter]

On 2/25/2023 at 12:57 PM, SiouxRanger said:

Our unit, in my experience, has never formally "vetted" anyone.  If an issue with respect to some adult is noticed, the leadership generally discusses it and formulates a plan to address it.

All that background stuff printed on the adult application is information provided for the CO to vet (and make a decision whether to accept or deny) the person.

See the blurb above the CO signature block.  "APPROVALS FOR UNIT ADULTS: I have reviewed this application and the responses to any questions answered “Yes,” and have made any follow-up inquiries necessary to be satisfied that the applicant possesses the moral, educational, and emotional qualities to be an adult leader in the BSA."

Your CO and unit should really be exercising "due diligence" in vetting people. 

[5thGenTexan]

The issue of "overnight camping"  and how many nights are permitted under GTSS only applies to the Cub Scout Program.  It has no bearing on Scouts BSA

[malraux]

9 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

The issue of "overnight camping"  and how many nights are permitted under GTSS only applies to the Cub Scout Program.  It has no bearing on Scouts BSA

Does overnight change definitions depending on age? That’s my issues. If overnight only means a single night, then it should impact the wording of lots of stuff in scouts bsa. 

[5thGenTexan]

Official response from Circle 10 today.

UPDATED CUB SCOUT CAMPING GUIDELINES

As many of you have already seen, the National Office recently made an addition to the Guide to Safe Scouting, specifically “Cub Scout pack unit coordinated camping is limited to single overnight experiences.”

 

The Circle Ten Council has been reviewing this new information and seeking clarification.

 

With this change, if a Cub Scout pack goes on a unit campout, you are limited to one-night events only. If you go for more, you will be out of compliance of the Guide to Safe Scouting.

 

Through our investigation, we have determined that a “short-term camp” will allow Cub Scout packs to camp for one, two, or three nights. A short-term camp is defined as council-coordinated, provides certified staff, and may provide program and food services.

 

All of our council-organized events are considered short-term camps (Cuborees, Family Campouts, Parent-N-Pals.), providing your unit many opportunities for multi-night camping.

 

In addition, Circle Ten Council will now be providing council-organized, short-term camp opportunities for packs on our camp properties on select weekends throughout the year, allowing your pack to camp for more than one night. These select weekends will be open for unit camping, you will simply reserve your campsite and conduct your program. We are in the process of setting up these weekends and will be sharing those opportunities with you as soon as we have all the pieces in place.

[KublaiKen]

1 hour ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Official response from Circle 10 today.

UPDATED CUB SCOUT CAMPING GUIDELINES

As many of you have already seen, the National Office recently made an addition to the Guide to Safe Scouting, specifically “Cub Scout pack unit coordinated camping is limited to single overnight experiences.”

 

The Circle Ten Council has been reviewing this new information and seeking clarification.

 

With this change, if a Cub Scout pack goes on a unit campout, you are limited to one-night events only. If you go for more, you will be out of compliance of the Guide to Safe Scouting.

 

Through our investigation, we have determined that a “short-term camp” will allow Cub Scout packs to camp for one, two, or three nights. A short-term camp is defined as council-coordinated, provides certified staff, and may provide program and food services.

 

All of our council-organized events are considered short-term camps (Cuborees, Family Campouts, Parent-N-Pals.), providing your unit many opportunities for multi-night camping.

 

In addition, Circle Ten Council will now be providing council-organized, short-term camp opportunities for packs on our camp properties on select weekends throughout the year, allowing your pack to camp for more than one night. These select weekends will be open for unit camping, you will simply reserve your campsite and conduct your program. We are in the process of setting up these weekends and will be sharing those opportunities with you as soon as we have all the pieces in place.

Ah. So they ban something as unsafe, but permit it if you buy from them.