Cub Scout Single Night Camping Only

[cmd]

On 3/9/2023 at 4:05 PM, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

A bit off topic at this point, but I would love to beta test that orienteering lesson with my wolf-soon-to-be-bear den. We just did Finding Your Way and they loved it, so I see an opportunity to feed that beast with orienteering. I'm not an expert myself, just loved orienteering in gym class, so would love a plan to execute... Plus an excuse to go trail running 😇

I haven't even started planning it, but here are a couple of resources I have:
https://www.floridaorienteering.org/tutorial/littletroll.htm - this is a progressive program that we did with my kids when they were little.  It no longer exists, but explains what it was like while it was supported.
  - another good progression with additional information on setting up training sites, preparing to go to a meet, etc 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

47 minutes ago, cmd said:

It no longer exists, but explains what it was like while it was supported.
  - another good progression with additional information on setting up training sites, preparing to go to a meet, etc

Oh, this is fantastic! Thank you so much! The question of skill progression is not my forte - I have no background in early childhood education - so having some guidance of what you can expect is so helpful! I will see what we can do with this. I see you can get orienteering kits online and we also have a club in town whose white course we might be able to borrow. 

Thank you 🙏

[cmd]

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Oh, this is fantastic! Thank you so much! The question of skill progression is not my forte - I have no background in early childhood education - so having some guidance of what you can expect is so helpful! I will see what we can do with this. I see you can get orienteering kits online and we also have a club in town whose white course we might be able to borrow. 

Thank you 🙏

I think another fun orienteering-based activity would be to take a hike and do a scavenger hunt along the way for features that would be listed on a map: old stone wall, streambed, large rootstock, lone tree, reentrant, etc.  If you can get a trail map, even if it isn't a topo one, they could draw in the symbols that correspond to those features.  Or even without a map, just have some large copies of the symbols and when they find something that is represented in the list show you the symbol.

[InquisitiveScouter]

11 hours ago, cmd said:

I think another fun orienteering-based activity would be to take a hike and do a scavenger hunt along the way for features that would be listed on a map: old stone wall, streambed, large rootstock, lone tree, reentrant, etc.  If you can get a trail map, even if it isn't a topo one, they could draw in the symbols that correspond to those features.  Or even without a map, just have some large copies of the symbols and when they find something that is represented in the list show you the symbol.

make and print your own basic topo maps at caltopo.com

[DuctTape]

21 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Oh, this is fantastic! Thank you so much! The question of skill progression is not my forte - I have no background in early childhood education - so having some guidance of what you can expect is so helpful! I will see what we can do with this. I see you can get orienteering kits online and we also have a club in town whose white course we might be able to borrow. 

Thank you 🙏

 

20 hours ago, cmd said:

I think another fun orienteering-based activity would be to take a hike and do a scavenger hunt along the way for features that would be listed on a map: old stone wall, streambed, large rootstock, lone tree, reentrant, etc.  If you can get a trail map, even if it isn't a topo one, they could draw in the symbols that correspond to those features.  Or even without a map, just have some large copies of the symbols and when they find something that is represented in the list show you the symbol.

 

8 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

make and print your own basic topo maps at caltopo.com

All good ideas. Another way to introduce map&compass and begin the skill progression is have them use the M&C to navigate to a large object/area on the map instead of a tiny orientering control. For example, take a bearing from their location and navigate to the playground, then take another a navigate to the sledding hill and then another to... . This gets them accustomed to the basics of using the M&C together and not focusing on straight line to stay on the exact bearing. They do not need to be as precise in their bearing so it is more fun, and they will be more successful which motivates them to the next step in their skill progression.

Note: In real life this is more what bacckountry navigating is like anyway. Using terrain features and navigating to the large objects like "the pond"; using terrain features as backstops and handrails etc...

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

@cmd @InquisitiveScouter @DuctTape Thanks to all of your ideas, I think we can incorporate practicing map and compass skills throughout the year!

The local orienteering club leader is willing to set something up for just us - a nuts and bolts focus on orienting the map kind of exercise. The club also has meets twice a year, to which interested scouts can go to with their parents to use that Florida Orienteering plan ideas during. We will do several hikes of course, during which we can use those topo maps to mark what we see on. And during a campout, we can practice taking a bearing and using landmarks and topo maps.

Several chances to practice a little at a time, and most of the time it's of little consequence whether they get it right or not. Just building the experience for the day it clicks.

Thank you so much for your ideas 🙇🏼‍♀️🙏

[ShootingSports]

On 3/6/2023 at 2:30 PM, DuctTape said:

 

Still zero rationale for why a two-night campout is inherently more unsafe than a single night to the level which necessitates its prohibition.

Pure speculation on rationale : 2 nights require a lot of resources that a number of packs would not be prepared to host.  Cost of the events increase significantly for the 2nd night (putting a strain on CS parents). 2 nights is an exhausting pace and fatigue leads to accidents. Dont want competition with our own camps.  National might have seen pattern in reported injuries and correlated to two night stays. Our program is "progressive" in advancement ( 1 night for CS and more for BS). NCAP kicks in and requires significant planning to comply (Units not prepared whereas Camps are (or at least should be).

 

Seven potential reasons......

[Eagle94-A1]

31 minutes ago, ShootingSports said:

 Don't want competition with our own camps

I believe the competition with council camps is the reason.

As for the other objections, I have not encountered them in 10 years of working with a pack. Cub camping is family camping. In the packs I worked with and been in, families and dens worked together. Costs  are not significantly increased, and having things stretched out over two nights is actually more relqxed than stressful. Some of the camp outs my pack went on had a 2+ hour drive one way.

As for NCAP, that is for district and council activities, not unit level. An d folks have asked to see the data, and it is not being shared,

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Some of the camp outs my pack went on had a 2+ hour drive one way.

This is most of ours. There are very few camping opportunities located closer than that, so we'd be doing to the same two places over and over otherwise. I just proposed one with a 3h one way drive time.

Let's just say we're complying with the letter but not the spirit of the rule because of the travel time ROI. All we do on night 1 is set up tents and go to sleep because we just drove several hours after work and school. But this gives us the experience of a whole day already settled into camp. 

It isn't nights that need counting, it's days actually out in nature.

Edited March 25, 2023 by AwakeEnergyScouter

[DuctTape]

12 hours ago, ShootingSports said:

Pure speculation on rationale : 2 nights require a lot of resources that a number of packs would not be prepared to host.  Cost of the events increase significantly for the 2nd night (putting a strain on CS parents). 2 nights is an exhausting pace and fatigue leads to accidents. Dont want competition with our own camps.  National might have seen pattern in reported injuries and correlated to two night stays. Our program is "progressive" in advancement ( 1 night for CS and more for BS). NCAP kicks in and requires significant planning to comply (Units not prepared whereas Camps are (or at least should be).

 

Seven potential reasons......

These are reasons for why a unit may decide to have a single night campout. But they are not reasons for why the gtss should prohibit it for all.

[KublaiKen]

As I mentioned, the campsites closest to us are starting to require two-night reservations. This is a bad idea.

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

As I mentioned, the campsites closest to us are starting to require two-night reservations. This is a bad idea.

Some places are like that.

I talked to one unit and they said this is how they will be handling it. they will now offer two overnighters:  one Friday/Saturday overnighter with one leader in charge, and a Saturday/Sunday overnighter with a different leader in charge. Families will have their choice of one or two overnighters.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

48 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

3 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

As I mentioned, the campsites closest to us are starting to require two-night reservations. This is a bad idea.

Some places are like that.

I talked to one unit and they said this is how they will be handling it. they will now offer two overnighters:  one Friday/Saturday overnighter with one leader in charge, and a Saturday/Sunday overnighter with a different leader in charge. Families will have their choice of one or two overnighters.

I don't think this rule is going to be actually followed by anyone currently doing two nights in a row without a detailed, well thought out, well-explained rationale. We may all cook up different "legal" schemes but we're effectively not going to stop a key part of the cub scouting program just because someone said so.

[DuctTape]

On 3/25/2023 at 12:28 PM, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I don't think this rule is going to be actually followed by anyone currently doing two nights in a row without a detailed, well thought out, well-explained rationale. We may all cook up different "legal" schemes but we're effectively not going to stop a key part of the cub scouting program just because someone said so.

And this was exactly my main point about putting it into the GTSS. It forces unit leaders to question ALL of the topics in the document, rendering it useless for its main purpose.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

13 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

And this was exactly my main point about putting it into the GTSS. It forces unit leaders to question ALL of the topics in the document, rendering it useless for its main purpose.

Yeah, I agree. It could be that this stays the only widely violated rule, but probably not given long enough time.

The thing about leading volunteers is that you have little positional authority no matter what the org chart says. You have to lead with vision, purpose, and motivate your decisions well or nothing will happen the way you wanted.